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Is the main girl from the new Star Wars a Mary Sue?

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  • #16
    [QUOTE=canbeserious;166519]
    Originally posted by Maxx View Post
    Friend,

    Disney doesn't 'despise men and boys'.

    Disney doesn't give a shit either way.
    /QUOTE]

    I'm gonna disagree with you here Maxx. While there might not be a lot of utility in knowing the intent of someone who is actively trying to murder you, the best assumption (occam's razor) is they actually intend to kill you.

    Disney makes movies that portray males in a negative light and narrates these stories as though this is fair or ethical treatment. I consider this to be immoral propaganda.

    I am very sympathetic to naked capitalists pursuing the almighty dollar (which is why 77 cents stat is such obvious hogwash), and therefore sympathetic to not blaming corps for meeting demand. My problem is that the MSM is not reactively supplying what is demanded, rather they (and the rest of hollywood) are trendsetting social values.

    In 1950s America men were honored and respected. In 2015, they are portrayed as cowards and evil in a significant portion of commercials. Yes culture changed quasi voluntarily, but the news media and the entertainment industry LEAD THE WAY. And even to this day, they are more leftwing, more antifamily, more anti male than the "center right" conservative nation it supplies information to.

    They have an agenda, and are not just supplying a fix to a drug user, they are pushing the limits of that addiction past what the user currently craves.

    This is why they are an immoral corporation.

    Sitting idly by in a morally neutral position of just supplying the fix is one thing (at least inert), but pushing the boundaries of the male hate is clearly immoral. It is sacrificing the almighty dollar to change cultural values. It is not naked capitalism, it is anti male social activism and it hurts their bottom line.

    TLDR; they would make more money in a center-right nation making more Jesus and Noah movies and bashing men less. They don't. They are activists. This is a deliberate propaganda movement. They. are. not. naked. capitalists.
    You just said my point in a much better way.
    The alternative to Disney is certainly Dreamworks and WB/DC. Dreamworks captured the male demographic that Disney lost.
    They double down on the flawed characters, Shrek is a hideous ogre, and very flawed and the princess also turns into one.
    Disney on the other hand is stupid enough to turn a very flawed Prince of Persia into a generic and bland prince and the interesting multi-dimentional Princess into a generic sassy action girl, which the girl from Star Wars will also become.
    Also Star Wars, from its very conception according to Lucas himself, was a children's movie and it still is. Comparing those to adult movies like Scarface and Raging Bull is wrong.

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    • #17
      Just came across this... Let's make it viral. :-)

      When a woman says to a man 'IF you really love me you would (INSERT VERB HERE)... 'IF you really love me you should buy/give/take/do X, Y, Z'... That's using...that's testing. And my answer to that is always; 'IF you loved me you wouldn't have asked that fucking question, now pack your shit and get the fuck out of my house.' - Maxx


      Asking a feminist about men's rights is like asking a cattle rancher about veganism.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by shephardjhon View Post
        Disney on the other hand is stupid enough to turn a very flawed Prince of Persia into a generic and bland prince and the interesting multi-dimentional Princess into a generic sassy action girl, which the girl from Star Wars will also become.
        How about we cross that bridge when we come to it instead of jumping to conclusions in advance?

        Originally posted by shephardjhon View Post
        Also Star Wars, from its very conception according to Lucas himself, was a children's movie and it still is. Comparing those to adult movies like Scarface and Raging Bull is wrong.
        This is simply untrue. Lucas is an idiot who didn't understand the first thing about his own franchise that's why he almost rammed the entire thing into the ground with those shitty prequels.

        This idea that star wars is a children's movie and so lacks flawed complex characters is untrue...Let's explore some of the key characters from the original movies...

        OBI WAN - Lies to Luke about his father's identity and his father's fate. This proves to be an error that plunges Luke into a confrontation he almost doesn't make it out of.

        LUKE - ignores the advice of his master Yoda and rushes to confront Vader with his training incomplete. And we know how that turned out for him.

        YODA - Dismisses Luke as too old to become a Jedi upon meeting him. He also assures Luke that Vader cannot be turned and must be confronted and slayed.

        LEIA - blue balls Han Solo and leads on her own (secret) brother Luke (ops). She also puts the trio into a garbage compacter them almost die in.

        LANDO - Sells out Han to Vader and Bobo Fett in exchange for allowing C3PO, Chewie and Leia to go free.

        HAN SOLO - Shoots Greedo in cold blood, is a smuggler and former EMPLOYEE of Jabba The Hutt the guy who keeps hookers on leashes and feeds them to his pet beast. He also doesn't give a fuck saving a princess or looking out for any one but himself.

        The ORIGINAL Star Wars movies are FULL of complex multi-layered characters. Large because of the involvement of people not named George Lucas.

        I don't want ever character in everything being reduced to a flat mary sue.. I don't care about the gender. Characters without doubts and flaws suck. They aren't human or 'real'.
        "Being a cunt doesn't make you wrong." ComradePrescott

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        • #19
          Originally posted by canbeserious View Post
          I'm gonna disagree with you here Maxx. While there might not be a lot of utility in knowing the intent of someone who is actively trying to murder you, the best assumption (occam's razor) is they actually intend to kill you.

          Disney makes movies that portray males in a negative light and narrates these stories as though this is fair or ethical treatment. I consider this to be immoral propaganda.
          Maybe. But does it lead or does it follow.

          My argument is that it follows much more than it leads.

          You want a feminist ramming feminism down everyone's throats try Joss Whedon.

          Disney has to sell it's movies in Korea and China...there's a tipping point. There's only so much feminism they can toss in there to secure western audiences at the risk of losing more lucrative markets elsewhere where feminist nonsense doesn't fly.

          Originally posted by canbeserious View Post
          I am very sympathetic to naked capitalists pursuing the almighty dollar (which is why 77 cents stat is such obvious hogwash), and therefore sympathetic to not blaming corps for meeting demand. My problem is that the MSM is not reactively supplying what is demanded, rather they (and the rest of hollywood) are trendsetting social values.

          In 1950s America men were honored and respected. In 2015, they are portrayed as cowards and evil in a significant portion of commercials. Yes culture changed quasi voluntarily, but the news media and the entertainment industry LEAD THE WAY. And even to this day, they are more leftwing, more antifamily, more anti male than the "center right" conservative nation it supplies information to.
          Agree with this. Especially when it comes to news media.

          But when it comes to entertainment you can't straight up alienate conservatives with left wing BS. From a movie makers POV the conservative the liberal and the buddist all pay the same price of admission.

          Most young people in the west today are social justice douchebags. Therefore media aimed at them is gonna have to reflect those values rather than challenge them in order to turn a profit.

          Originally posted by canbeserious View Post
          They have an agenda, and are not just supplying a fix to a drug user, they are pushing the limits of that addiction past what the user currently craves.

          This is why they are an immoral corporation.
          Their agenda is making money. Sometimes they have to appease feminists and SJWs to do so.

          Women and girls LEAD the market.

          Most families in the west are broken. Mothers have custody. They decide what their sons and daughters see for the most part at the movies.

          Women and girls turn moving viewing into a communal thing, they invite other women and take other women's children. Men watch movies alone. They download movies illegally or they prefer to take their kid to task on a video game.

          Women lead the market. That's reflected in the out put.

          Originally posted by canbeserious View Post
          Sitting idly by in a morally neutral position of just supplying the fix is one thing (at least inert), but pushing the boundaries of the male hate is clearly immoral. It is sacrificing the almighty dollar to change cultural values. It is not naked capitalism, it is anti male social activism and it hurts their bottom line.
          If it hurt their bottom line they wouldn't do it.

          Disney is like a giant shark. If it starts doing something that causes it to starve it'll change.

          Originally posted by canbeserious View Post
          TLDR; they would make more money in a center-right nation making more Jesus and Noah movies and bashing men less. They don't. They are activists. This is a deliberate propaganda movement. They. are. not. naked. capitalists.
          That's the US. Movies made in the US don't have to sell just in the US, where as you rightly point out there is a massive and often ignored Christian audience hollywood liberals aren't interested in engaging all that much.

          But on the flip side how well do you think Christian stuff travels across the none Christian markets?

          Everyone loves a giant robot or Megan Fox in a bra and panties but Jesus? He's got his limitations in china and the middle east. As does liberal feminist BS.

          Yeh you need to nod to it to pander to western women that drive the market here in the west. Especially when it comes to kids movies. But you can't over egg it as you lose the Chinese and whoever else.
          "Being a cunt doesn't make you wrong." ComradePrescott

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          • #20
            saw the movie, and Oh my Fuck, Rey is probably one of the worst Mary Sue's I have ever seen.


            what is worse is that people are praising her as if she is some kind of great character


            no doubt this will encourage writers to put more Mary Sues in their stories, as this seems to be what people want

            welp

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            • #21
              what a surprise, calling anyone who speaks about the characters Mary Sueness a misogynist



              What’s not to love? Especially given the frankly misogynist Internet pushback on Rey being too great, it’s been tough to remember that the toxic online echo chamber doesn’t speak for the world as a whole. This is a great reminder: Rey isn’t just winning this poll, she is, at the time of publishing this post, winning it in a landslid

              http://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/...ite-character?

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              • #22
                [QUOTE=astr592;167039]what a surprise, calling anyone who speaks about the characters Mary Sueness a misogynist

                LOL. Rey needs feminism about as much as a fish needs a bicycle. She's a survivor, not a self-imposed victim.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by astr592 View Post
                  saw the movie, and Oh my Fuck, Rey is probably one of the worst Mary Sue's I have ever seen.


                  what is worse is that people are praising her as if she is some kind of great character


                  no doubt this will encourage writers to put more Mary Sues in their stories, as this seems to be what people want

                  welp
                  Fair enough.

                  I just wish everyone would watch the movie (as you did) then come their own conclusions.

                  I read a bunch of MRM shit about Mad Max being 'feminist' and then was shocked to actually watch it and discover that I didn't think it was at all.
                  "Being a cunt doesn't make you wrong." ComradePrescott

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Kimski View Post

                    LOL. Rey needs feminism about as much as a fish needs a bicycle. She's a survivor, not a self-imposed victim.

                    Yeh, at first sight it looks to be somewhat feminist, because 'she's so amazing at everything'. But there may come really good explanations for her picking up abilities very fast in the next movie(s). There are some 'feminist sprinkles' in the movie, and I first found it to be a weak movie compared to IV, V and VI, but the more I think about it, the more it may just be a very ingenious plot that hasn't fully unfolded yet.

                    Rey is not some sassy, bigmouthed, man-denigrating girl. She's a survivor like you say and I'm really curious about how they're going to forward with this new saga.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Berne View Post
                      Yeh, at first sight it looks to be somewhat feminist, because 'she's so amazing at everything'. But there may come really good explanations for her picking up abilities very fast in the next movie(s). There are some 'feminist sprinkles' in the movie, and I first found it to be a weak movie compared to IV, V and VI, but the more I think about it, the more it may just be a very ingenious plot that hasn't fully unfolded yet.

                      Rey is not some sassy, bigmouthed, man-denigrating girl. She's a survivor like you say and I'm really curious about how they're going to forward with this new saga.
                      That's the crux of it for me. The only bit that struck me as overtly 'feministy' was the whole 'don't hold my hand' line.

                      Then again is that really different Princess Leia's 'you had a plan to get yourself into here but not a plan to get any of us out' rant she throws at Han Solo upon first meeting him (and Luke) in New Hope?

                      As for the rest of it IF Rey's abilities aren't adequately explained in the next couple of movies all the detractors will have their day in the sun. But I think the jury ought to stay out until then.
                      "Being a cunt doesn't make you wrong." ComradePrescott

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Maxx View Post
                        That's the crux of it for me. The only bit that struck me as overtly 'feministy' was the whole 'don't hold my hand' line.

                        Then again is that really different Princess Leia's 'you had a plan to get yourself into here but not a plan to get any of us out' rant she throws at Han Solo upon first meeting him (and Luke) in New Hope?

                        As for the rest of it IF Rey's abilities aren't adequately explained in the next couple of movies all the detractors will have their day in the sun. But I think the jury ought to stay out until then.



                        here is a fantastic post someone made on IMDB that basically says how Luke would have been like if he had been portrayed like Rey in ANH


                        http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2488496/.../252049846?p=1



                        it really is 100% true. Believe me, I assumed Rey being Mary Sue was an exaggeration but seriously it's like this character is a parody of Mary Sues. She is shown to be perfect at repairing things, flying, seems to be better at repairing the Millennium Falcon than Han Solo, all the other characters are immediately impressed and love her, and of course she masters the Jedi mind trick and other force powers and is able to fight and take down a man trained in the Dark Side in record time.

                        I have nothing against the actress though, she was very good and also pretty cute.
                        Now I know, the popular theory is that she is Luke's daughter and I really hope that is true, but we nothing is really said for sure in this movie. Due to all the feminist BS and complaints about movies being sexist and not having strong women, I wouldn't be surprised if she is not related to anyone and the reason she is able to do this is simply because she is a "strong, independent woman"



                        and of course we have the typical reaction from everyone. Anyone who dares say anything about Rey is immediately branded a hateful, sexist, misogynist who can't handle "strong female characters" and you have articles like the one I posted above everywhere. It is just cringe inducing


                        here is an article from a woman who agrees that Rey was just too much. Hopefully more women will speak out as well. I really doubt it is only male fans who have a problem with her, I bet there are a lot of female fans who feel the same as way.

                        http://www.themalaymailonline.com/op...-megan-mcardle
                        Last edited by astr592; 12-30-2015, 04:17 PM.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          What’s not to love? Especially given the frankly misogynist Internet pushback on Rey being too great, it’s been tough to remember that the toxic online echo chamber doesn’t speak for the world as a whole. This is a great reminder: Rey isn’t just winning this poll, she is, at the time of publishing this post, winning it in a landslid
                          It's funny that they'd call the push-back misogynistic.

                          I think it's the recognition of a larger trend in popular culture. In movies, books and TV people don't become amazing through hard work anymore. They're just born with it. Everyone is wonderful simply for being who they are. Some of that is just about saving time, ignoring a backstory and showing every character as being the absolute best at something, even if they've never done it before.

                          It's sort of the media equivalent of the participation trophy. People need to be told they're wonderful simply for being....without any effort or results. It does a serious disservice to the people who work to better themselves.

                          Is there any wonder that narcissism's on the rise?
                          "...but when she goes off you, she will not just walk away, she will walk away with your fucking skin in a jar." ~~ DoctorRandomercam
                          "The laws of man, they don't apply when blood gets in a woman's eye" - The Black Keys

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by astr592 View Post
                            Now I know, the popular theory is that she is Luke's daughter and I really hope that is true, but we nothing is really said for sure in this movie]
                            If she turns out (in the sequel) that she's Luke's daughter and/or a former student of his, will you still consider her to be a mary Sue?

                            Or would that cause you to revise your opinion of her character in The force awakens?
                            "Being a cunt doesn't make you wrong." ComradePrescott

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Maxx View Post
                              If she turns out (in the sequel) that she's Luke's daughter and/or a former student of his, will you still consider her to be a mary Sue?

                              Or would that cause you to revise your opinion of her character in The force awakens?


                              I would revise my opinion slightly. Still I don't think it was necessary to basically make the character perfect and without flaws


                              not to mention allow it to fuel feminism with all these articles coming out about strong females and allowing all criticizers to be shot down by misogyny attacks. Isn't that annoying?

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by astr592 View Post
                                not to mention allow it to fuel feminism with all these articles coming out about strong females and allowing all criticizers to be shot down by misogyny attacks. Isn't that annoying?
                                But that's the irony that feminists wont appreciate until some situation arises that actually forces them to look at their own flaws: strong females are strong precisely because they've had to face their own flaws.....not because they were born with a vagina. The women who want to believe that a flawless female character is an archetype of "strong femininity" are simply attempting to mask their own flaws with fantasy, never to embrace what those flaws have to teach them.
                                "...but when she goes off you, she will not just walk away, she will walk away with your fucking skin in a jar." ~~ DoctorRandomercam
                                "The laws of man, they don't apply when blood gets in a woman's eye" - The Black Keys

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