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Is the main girl from the new Star Wars a Mary Sue?

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  • Is the main girl from the new Star Wars a Mary Sue?

    There's been a lot of talk about it recently. Here is an article about it

    http://www.theverge.com/2015/12/19/1...y-sue-feminist


    What do you think?

  • #2
    The feminism isn't oppressive.

    There are a ton of a bad ass dudes in the movie too.

    Including the original bad ass himself Han Solo of course.

    Ray is not like a sassy Joss Whedon nerd-baiting dominatrix type character.

    I watched the movie with a chick she was more bothered by the female led than I was.

    That never happens...I hated Avengers in part because Whedon turned Black Widow into a feminist mary sue. I can't stand those ridiculous underworld movies. I hate almost every single movie in which they have a super capable mary sue chick doing stupid feminist high kicking 'martial arts' against a room full of dudes.

    This movie isn't one of them.

    She's good at fixing engines because she grew up on a desert planet full of scraps of star destroyers that fell outta the sky. She can defend herself from being raped by sand people using a stick. That's it.

    No one liners. No 'try and keep up boys' nonsense. None of that.

    She's not some sort of spandex wear sassy super chick nerds are meant to beat off over.

    The only case for regarding the character as a mary sue stems from the speed at which she picks up certain force abilities....and without going into spoiler territory I think there's pretty strong evidence explaining a VERY bad ass reason for this that I can't get into here without giving away key elements of the movie.

    HINT; For those that have seen the movie I think the clues explaining the ease with which she picks up those force abilities resides in the scene immediately following the introduction of 'someone's' lightsabre.
    Last edited by Maxx; 12-22-2015, 09:43 AM.
    "Being a cunt doesn't make you wrong." ComradePrescott

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    • #3
      Yeah, if it turns out to be what Maxx is hinting at then I think all is forgiven.
      The whole bit with Rey balking at Finn holding her hand made me eyeroll, though.

      EDIT: Here's something someone else posted on an IMDB forum. I'm sure it will get deleted soon. Not sure if I agree (just saw the movie yesterday, haven't digested it all), but it's an interesting take.

      Kylo Ren is an indictment of White Young Males around the country...they lack focus, they are angry, they got daddy issues, and wish they were powerful.

      Rey makes feminist wet since she is the opposite...she is everything Ren is not...and that is the problem.

      Rey has everything Ren wants by default...all she needed was to be 'mind' raped by a male (Ren), to claim the invincible victim hood.
      Last edited by Phobos; 12-22-2015, 11:53 PM.

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      • #4
        I've been hearing from a lot of places this movie is a SJW's wet dream. Sounds pretty discouraging

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        • #5
          TL;DR seems to think so
          Interested in men rights activism in the Sydney area ?
          Go to mensrightssydney.com

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Imdbguy View Post
            Kylo Ren is an indictment of White Young Males around the country...they lack focus, they are angry, they got daddy issues, and wish they were powerful.
            Here's my problem with this right here. This is EXACTLY what feminists do. Feminists argue that every female in a given movie is some sort of statement about the entire female gender.

            Writers respond by turning female characters into mary sues without any issues or problems in order to get feminists off their back.

            It sickens me hear MRAs or allegedly red pill anti-feminist types doing the EXACT same thing.

            I WANT to see male characters who lack focus, who are angry, who have daddy issues who wish they were powerful...I was ALL THOSE THINGS when I was a boy.

            Those things make a character ('good' or 'bad') complex and compelling.

            We WANT characters that are complex and compelling. Don't we?

            I don't want a bunch of male and female mary sues in every fucking movie because the entire younger generation has become such a bunch of special snowflakes that they can't handle the sight of a character of the same gender as them having issues or flaws or being 'bad' without fucking taking it personally and getting butt hurt.
            Last edited by Maxx; 12-23-2015, 01:42 PM.
            "Being a cunt doesn't make you wrong." ComradePrescott

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Imdefender View Post
              TL;DR seems to think so
              SPOILERS FOLLOW FOR FORCE AWAKENS -


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              A lot of people like this guy in this video here, could well end up with egg on their faces by the time the next movie comes out.

              The guy in this video keeps repeating that 'she has had no force training' over and over. What's his basis for this assertion?

              We are informed early on that 'one of Luke's student's turned on him'.

              'one of' implication being there was more than one.

              The girl's entire back story is shrouded in mystery. Touching Luke's light saber triggers a nightmarish vision. That vision looks a lot like a memory. We see what looks like Luke and R2-D2 engaged in what appears to be a confrontation with the knights of Ren. We then see a young Rey looking up and crying as she is abandoned by a mysterious figure on a desert planet...

              The clues are ALL there.

              People constantly complain about movies handing things to them and then they call a character a mary sue just because the reasons for their abilities are only hinted out rather than explicitly stated in the first part of a three part cycle.

              This is Star Wars guys....

              'Who's your daddy?' Is a key question here. 'Who's your daddy and what does he do?'

              My money is on Han or Luke.

              Let's tackle the mary sue issues one on one -

              She pilots the Falcon with ease - Valid, but why assume she's not piloted anything before? Luke got in an X-Wing for the first time and blew up the fucking Death Star. People on desert planet pilot stuff. Luke had that little speeder thing didn't he.

              Secondly there is a joke in scene where Han Solo gets into the Falcon and learns it's been fitted with new tech he's not familiar with. This is a generational gag more than a gender one. And no she doesn't pilot it better than Han she co pilots it with him because Chewie is injured and doesn't fuck it up.

              Then onto the end fights.

              Kylo gets shot shortly after her kills 'you know who', he's limping through the cold and keeps hitting his wound, presumably because he's losing sensation and fading out. This is the condition he STARTS the fight in. He takes on Finn, who attacks aggressively without much let up. Kylo deals with him but expends a lot of his already sapped energy doing so.

              This tires himself out. Then he tries to force pull the Luke saber into his grip to finish off Finn when the saber doesn't budge...

              ...This is as much to do with the saber resisting as anything else.

              Like an Excalibur thing. And then it flies into Rey's hand instead. When it does she's shocked. Then Kylo attacks her and backs her up. She's on the defensive for the entire fight, eventually Kylo is distracted by his footing giving way and she lands a blow that floors him.

              He can't get up before the ground gives way and separates them.

              She doesn't 'hand his ass to him'. People wanna be butt hurt and so they are seeing Jesus in a piece of toast.

              When it comes to the mind trick thing...Kylo employs it on her when he doesn't know she's force sensitive. When he opens up her mind in discovers to his horror that she has the ability to look back into him too. That's cool. And again it's only bad writing IF she has no Jedi training and is NOT either Kylo's secret BROTHER or Luke's secret DAUGHTER.

              Which don't know she isn't.

              Like I said if the second film comes out and she's not one of the Jedi previously trained by Luke, if it's revealed that Luke didn't in fact wipe her memory of her training to protect her from Ren if it's revealed that she's not either Han's daughter or Luke's if she is revealed to just be some chick from the desert who picked up a light saber and beat a Sith for no fucking reason....then yeh she's a mary sue and the writing sucks.

              But we don't presently have the info to jump to that conclusion.

              And all the clues that there's more to it are already there in Force Awakens. What the hell was that nightmare sequence all about and what does it mean?

              We got just under two years to speculate and nerd-out about it...and then we'll have our answers.
              Last edited by Maxx; 12-23-2015, 02:07 PM.
              "Being a cunt doesn't make you wrong." ComradePrescott

              Comment


              • #8
                SPECULATION - POSSIBLE SPOILER

                Rey's origin is unknown. She has a strange vision/flashback when she touches Anakin/Luke's lightsaber. If it is indeed revealed in the next movie that she is Luke Skywalker's daughter, I think a lot of people will be satisfied by that as the explanation for her "Mary Sue-ness". It could be possible that she even received some training from him when she was a small child.

                I realize I'm doing the same "Maybe in the next movie it will be explained" thing that fanboys employed for the prequels.

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                • #9
                  This Star Wars is a Disney movie. Keep that in mind before trying to make excuses for it.
                  This isn't Kim Possible Disney(The best example of a non-Mary Sue female protagonist in my book) , this Maleficent Disney, this is Frozen Disney, this is Toy Story 3 Disney, this is Fem-Thor Disney.
                  This is the post-Gargoyles Disney. Back in those days, they tried their hardest to appeal to boys, Gargoyles, Treasure Planet, Atlantis, Tarzan(the only Disney prince movie aside from Lion King), they even turned a female lead show to a male lead spinoff ("That's So Raven" to "Cory in the House") the closest thing to success they got was Phienes and Ferb, boys were not interested and now Disney hates men and boys and caters only to feminists since about Iron Man 1.
                  I will stick to WB and DC and hope Captain America Civil War falls flat on its face against Batman v Superman and Disney goes bust funding marvel soon.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by shephardjhon View Post
                    This Star Wars is a Disney movie. Keep that in mind before trying to make excuses for it.
                    This isn't Kim Possible Disney(The best example of a non-Mary Sue female protagonist in my book) , this Maleficent Disney, this is Frozen Disney, this is Toy Story 3 Disney, this is Fem-Thor Disney.
                    This is the post-Gargoyles Disney. Back in those days, they tried their hardest to appeal to boys, Gargoyles, Treasure Planet, Atlantis, Tarzan(the only Disney prince movie aside from Lion King), they even turned a female lead show to a male lead spinoff ("That's So Raven" to "Cory in the House") the closest thing to success they got was Phienes and Ferb, boys were not interested and now Disney hates men and boys and caters only to feminists since about Iron Man 1.
                    I will stick to WB and DC and hope Captain America Civil War falls flat on its face against Batman v Superman and Disney goes bust funding marvel soon.
                    Toy Story 3 was fantastic

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by astr592 View Post
                      Toy Story 3 was fantastic
                      Ken gets tortured by Barbie and Andy is replaced by a girl. Also I don't remember any female toys being in the evil toy group.
                      Even the one of the first two has has a brother is shown as evil and then tortured by the toys while his sister is supposed to be good.
                      The point is DISNEY DESPISES MEN AND BOYS. Their most male-positive show Phenias and Ferb was supposed to be on Nickloadeon, and Iron Man 1 seems to be a ploy to gently suck everyone into a feminist story that the Avengers saga eventually became, only female fans who like to see the guy shirtless will stop them making Thor a woman. I stopped watching after Tony just gives his father's company to his secretary, I haven't watched any other Marvel movie since. Arrow did that the sectary to CEO thing too but in a much more natural and non-abrupt way.

                      Notice also that even the Force Awakens has the woman as the most prominent character on it, the black stormtrooper-jedi is down in the corner(I haven't and probably won't see the movie so I don't know their names) and Han Solo gets a smaller image too. For me, the Phenias and Ferb Star Wars crossover was the only good Star Wars thing that Disney could make.
                      If you want a better version of the Force Awakens, play Mortal Kombat X. Its the same generation torch passing, aftermath of big war thing. And the hero is a girl but not a MarySue.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by shephardjhon View Post
                        Ken gets tortured by Barbie and Andy is replaced by a girl. Also I don't remember any female toys being in the evil toy group.
                        Even the one of the first two has has a brother is shown as evil and then tortured by the toys while his sister is supposed to be good.
                        The point is DISNEY DESPISES MEN AND BOYS. Their most male-positive show Phenias and Ferb was supposed to be on Nickloadeon, and Iron Man 1 seems to be a ploy to gently suck everyone into a feminist story that the Avengers saga eventually became, only female fans who like to see the guy shirtless will stop them making Thor a woman. I stopped watching after Tony just gives his father's company to his secretary, I haven't watched any other Marvel movie since. Arrow did that the sectary to CEO thing too but in a much more natural and non-abrupt way.

                        Notice also that even the Force Awakens has the woman as the most prominent character on it, the black stormtrooper-jedi is down in the corner(I haven't and probably won't see the movie so I don't know their names) and Han Solo gets a smaller image too. For me, the Phenias and Ferb Star Wars crossover was the only good Star Wars thing that Disney could make.
                        If you want a better version of the Force Awakens, play Mortal Kombat X. Its the same generation torch passing, aftermath of big war thing. And the hero is a girl but not a MarySue.
                        Friend,

                        Disney doesn't 'despise men and boys'.

                        Disney doesn't give a shit either way.

                        If feminist secular progressive ideology has a major hold over the public consciousness (and in the west today it does) then that will be reflected in any creative work a massive multi-national company like Disney, targets at that public.

                        The reality is that young males have in significant numbers abandoned the cinema in favor of online piracy and playing video games. On the flip side girls especially young girls have become pretty big readers of sci-fi and fantasy.

                        All you see on the big screen is a smart big company moving the chips around to increase the probability of a return on investment.

                        And as for the term 'male-positive' I fucking hate it. It stinks.

                        What does 'male-positive' mean?

                        A show or movie that only shows males in a positive light?

                        Thanks but no thanks.

                        You are talking to a guy who's favorite movies in include Scarface; about a Cuban drug lord who builds a massive empire stealing cheating and chopping up his rivals along the way, who robs his old bosses girl from him then murders the fucker, who eventually also murders his best buddy because the guy hooks up with his sister he kinda really wanted to fuck himself.

                        And Raging Bull about a dude who beats the ever living fuck outta everyone and everything in his life including his wife and children and trusted brother and ends the movie alone in dive bar banging his head against a wall.

                        Who the fuck wants 'male positive'! I don't need a movie about some magical dude who's whiter than white and never says or does anything wrong it'd annoy me beyond belief I'd want to punch the smug fucker in the face for being so perfect.

                        We WANT flaws. Flaws are great!

                        I'd much rather watch the Sopranos than some 'male-positive' show about about bunch of homo-looking waxed male model type super heroes who go around being fabulous all the time!

                        Thanks but no thanks!
                        Last edited by Maxx; 12-24-2015, 09:34 AM.
                        "Being a cunt doesn't make you wrong." ComradePrescott

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Maxx View Post
                          Friend,

                          Disney doesn't 'despise men and boys'.

                          Disney doesn't give a shit either way.

                          If feminist secular progressive ideology has a major hold over the public consciousness (and in the west today it does) then that will be reflected in any creative work a massive multi-national company like Disney, targets at that public.
                          Secular progressive ideology yet Gotham gets made with not one, not two not even three but several female villains AND female heroes. And two recent male-dominated movies have been extremely successful, The man from UNCLE and Kingsmen, not to mention several Jason Statham movies.
                          Disney could make a Maleficent and a Frozen and then one like those but even with Dreamworks coming out with How To Train a Dragon, Disney not only ignores the male audience but takes a movie, comics and other things that mostly men loved and that had makes them change to appeal to women AT THE EXPENSE OF MEN.
                          What does 'male-positive' mean?
                          To me it means that in the context of a good vs evil plot the good should not be represented mostly by women and the bad mostly by men.
                          The movies you mention are great but they are a completely different beast than Star Wars.
                          Even in Star Wars itself, there are hints of grey in Luke and of course Vader himself. Same in superhero and spy and military movies/games but the good guys aren't just women.

                          I'd much rather watch the Sopranos than some 'male-positive' show about about bunch of homo-looking waxed male model type super heroes who go around being fabulous all the time!
                          You would seriously love Gotham. It is a crime show, not a superhero show and it gets really dark, probably much more than the Sopranos itself.
                          Also Arrow is similar in the first 2 seasons until superpowers are introduced.

                          AND LASTLY;
                          The comments weren't directed at you specifically, they are about Star Wars and the probable feminist direction Disney will take with it considering its past history and failure to appeal to boys in compassion to Dreamworks(a company made by bitter Disney ex-employees). That, by the way, only happened because Dreamworks movies had flawed characters unlike Disney.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by shephardjhon View Post
                            Ken gets tortured by Barbie and Andy is replaced by a girl. Also I don't remember any female toys being in the evil toy group.
                            Even the one of the first two has has a brother is shown as evil and then tortured by the toys while his sister is supposed to be good.
                            The point is DISNEY DESPISES MEN AND BOYS. Their most male-positive show Phenias and Ferb was supposed to be on Nickloadeon, and Iron Man 1 seems to be a ploy to gently suck everyone into a feminist story that the Avengers saga eventually became, only female fans who like to see the guy shirtless will stop them making Thor a woman. I stopped watching after Tony just gives his father's company to his secretary, I haven't watched any other Marvel movie since. Arrow did that the sectary to CEO thing too but in a much more natural and non-abrupt way.

                            Notice also that even the Force Awakens has the woman as the most prominent character on it, the black stormtrooper-jedi is down in the corner(I haven't and probably won't see the movie so I don't know their names) and Han Solo gets a smaller image too. For me, the Phenias and Ferb Star Wars crossover was the only good Star Wars thing that Disney could make.
                            If you want a better version of the Force Awakens, play Mortal Kombat X. Its the same generation torch passing, aftermath of big war thing. And the hero is a girl but not a MarySue.
                            Andy being "replaced" by the girl was an extremely moving scene. The entire ending was tear jerking

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              [QUOTE=Maxx;166385]Friend,

                              Disney doesn't 'despise men and boys'.

                              Disney doesn't give a shit either way.
                              /QUOTE]

                              I'm gonna disagree with you here Maxx. While there might not be a lot of utility in knowing the intent of someone who is actively trying to murder you, the best assumption (occam's razor) is they actually intend to kill you.

                              Disney makes movies that portray males in a negative light and narrates these stories as though this is fair or ethical treatment. I consider this to be immoral propaganda.

                              I am very sympathetic to naked capitalists pursuing the almighty dollar (which is why 77 cents stat is such obvious hogwash), and therefore sympathetic to not blaming corps for meeting demand. My problem is that the MSM is not reactively supplying what is demanded, rather they (and the rest of hollywood) are trendsetting social values.

                              In 1950s America men were honored and respected. In 2015, they are portrayed as cowards and evil in a significant portion of commercials. Yes culture changed quasi voluntarily, but the news media and the entertainment industry LEAD THE WAY. And even to this day, they are more leftwing, more antifamily, more anti male than the "center right" conservative nation it supplies information to.

                              They have an agenda, and are not just supplying a fix to a drug user, they are pushing the limits of that addiction past what the user currently craves.

                              This is why they are an immoral corporation.

                              Sitting idly by in a morally neutral position of just supplying the fix is one thing (at least inert), but pushing the boundaries of the male hate is clearly immoral. It is sacrificing the almighty dollar to change cultural values. It is not naked capitalism, it is anti male social activism and it hurts their bottom line.

                              TLDR; they would make more money in a center-right nation making more Jesus and Noah movies and bashing men less. They don't. They are activists. This is a deliberate propaganda movement. They. are. not. naked. capitalists.

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