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The Wonder Woman movie is another example of male bashing.

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Deidre View Post
    Think I'll opt to see ''47 Meters Down'', instead. I'm not into movies that promote violence against anyone, but it seems that most movies glorify women hurting men, and the best solution is to boycott those films by not seeing them. Regardless if you feel that the tone of the movie didn't have an effect on you, it does have an adverse effect on our culture.
    Good position to take. As someone old enough to remember some of the original launch stories, I get annoyed at the way characters are subverted, and the way the original creators, in this case two men (fembots ignore that fact - males creating female gender positive characters) have their character corrupted. There was a subtlety to Wonder Woman (name is terrible but wth), in that Themyscira was based on Greek myths of Amazons who were a male excluding society, they killed men and boys who arrived on that island. That was based on a long standing enmity, in the past that was caused by the controlling nature of Gods, some trying to control through gifts of magic and others through deception, but the yadda yadda backstory didn't really matter, it was a flip flop of rebels becoming the new oppressors. Diana as a character was appealing because she went against the grain of her society's sexism, she was motivated by justice. In all of those characters at the time, it was justice that was the highest principle and endlessly explored. It was lapped up by fans like myself.

    The corruption of warped justice as an excuse to beat up, and now to just kill is the modern version. The first corruption was the WW2 use of comics that didn't help quality story telling based on characters who sought justice, WW2 propaganda rapidly warped stories to rather hate promoting / justify killing agendas. Now we see the same thing, it's ruthless violence, stereotyping and misrepresenting classes of people, attaching the evil trait to them and then it's okay to slaughter them. This has never been done to women, never once have I ever seen the mindless slaughter of women portrayed as a social good, how many times do we have to watch that being done to men not only as entertainment but promoted as a social good.

    It does have an adverse effect on culture, but worse also is that our culturally dominant forces (like the media) already regard it as okay, it's deeply embedded. That is demonstrated by the countless real events of genocidal acts against males that are ignored.
    Last edited by voidspawn; 07-01-2017, 11:59 AM.
    "...especially when it comes to communication, it can be observed, if it is not a negotiation it's a war."
    Originally posted by menrppl2
    Can't live with em, life is great without them.

    Comment


    • #17
      Great post, voidspawn. It makes one wonder though...are movies an illustration of our culture or do they shape the culture? I thought that while reading your post. Same with presidents. The losing side gets angry at a new president but doesn't that new president merely reflect the choice of society? (Majority)

      I don't like super hero movies, in general. Mainly because it creates this idea that we aren't good enough as humans to solve our problems, that we need to be super human. Or we need a super hero to idolize and those films are often lost on me. I like realistic plots a bit better, especially stories of human triumph against adversity.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Deidre View Post
        Great post, voidspawn. It makes one wonder though...are movies an illustration of our culture or do they shape the culture? I thought that while reading your post. Same with presidents. The losing side gets angry at a new president but doesn't that new president merely reflect the choice of society? (Majority)

        I don't like super hero movies, in general. Mainly because it creates this idea that we aren't good enough as humans to solve our problems, that we need to be super human. Or we need a super hero to idolize and those films are often lost on me. I like realistic plots a bit better, especially stories of human triumph against adversity.
        I liked the fantastical element of super heroes, seeing impossible stuff, aliens, magic etc. But that was as a child and with some sentimental hangover as an adult. As a guide for living they are crap. How many times are we as normal human beings portrayed as too dumb to get away from falling buildings without superheroes to save us. What's worse is that each and every one of these movies portrays the police, fire service etc - our real protectors as half-wits. Like everyone did here, I've no doubt that you probably followed 9/11 live as it happened. The profound I can't believe my eyes feeling surpassed by total awe towards the firefighters who went in to save people, and shock at the building collapsing whilst they were still in it. Courage is needed where it can go wrong, and it's more than likely to go horribly wrong, as much as silly fantasy can pretend to capture, it pushes forward a profoundly stupid message that it will be all okay if we pick the right heroes and set them over us. Those are benevolent dictator stories, and benevolent dictator stories are there to prepare children to accept dictatorships. When we see mob behaviour of SJW's we should also note how they sheepishly follow their leaders. Normally the vilest and nastiest that become the heroes to the sheeple.

        I think I'll probably always have a soft spot for fantasy tales but totally agree, the stories I want to learn from are those that teach me to do stuff or how to work with others to get stuff done.

        Really good question about reflection of society, and in the past I think they were mostly. But movies have a very long history as deliberate propaganda, Germany, UK, Russia, US, China etc:

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...f_World_War_II
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...933%E2%80%9345
        http://www.imdb.com/list/ls076748682/

        It's a huge area, and it goes deep into society even now. It's done because it works. Not individually, you don't just make one and forget it, it is used to establish and sell a narrative.

        The connection to that and reflecting society I think is more complex. Firstly it's about the part of society with the voice and reach reflecting what they want to the others. Democracies end up divided into very transitory flip flops of winners and losers, each aiming to establish when they can it's like opposing camps tossing a coin for the megaphone. Then preaching at the crowd. These people pay so little attention to the crowd as they are so desperate to preach at them, they don't have time to reflect them.

        The latest multi gender nonsense is not a reflection of reality, there aren't 58 genders living on every average street. It has little to do with reflecting reality or society, apart from one aspect, who is being pushed to gain social ascendency. Who gets to be listened to by the powers that be. This is the division trick, sure it's reflecting part of society, the currently favoured mob, who must protect the hierarchy in return for its favour, and the disrespect the unfavoured mob who must beg and woo the hierarchy for support. It's a case of heads or tails, incumbent power wins as it gets to decide.

        What we are seeing now are two things which change our perception, firstly the struggle between hierarchies for control, between political class, media class, finance class, socialist etc is playing out in very visible vitriolic terms and because our media is so apparent you can pretty much see every move being played out, as they mock and set up each other. Secondly the speed things now play out, in this information age things just happen insanely fast, no more year long production project for movies and literature with all the planning, propaganda can be rapidly produced and A/B tested pretty much instantaneously. For spectators like us, who try desperately not to get sucked into the stupidity we can watch bewildered but I think morbidly fascinated. Every time I read through the news articles posted here, I think morbid fascination is the most honest way I can describe my reaction to most articles posted.

        I think this speed of information is a new factor, and it makes it really hard to discern what is shaped by something that reflects us or at least some of us, and what is deliberate attempts to shape us. Attempts to shape us, aren't going to work for the longer term, but again that isn't the objective, the aim is to set up new masters and strip down and weaken potential threats. If we look at who really has taken a bashing in this period, it's working class men. The very groups who did most of the heavy lifting in shifting the old order based on aristocracy, now being beaten down and vilified as oppressors. It doesn't convince working class men that they are oppressors but it convinces them people hate them, and the small minded bullies are more than happy to take a power trip at someone else's expense use it with glee. No new story there, but nowadays whenever I watch any group being extolled or destroyed, I just wonder what story are we going to be sold next year, when everyone is bored with this one. Never thought I'd see it like this but conservatism has become a revolutionary act, times are crazy because they are happening at a rate and noise level that is no longer within human tolerances for processing and understanding new information.
        Last edited by voidspawn; 07-02-2017, 10:41 AM.
        "...especially when it comes to communication, it can be observed, if it is not a negotiation it's a war."
        Originally posted by menrppl2
        Can't live with em, life is great without them.

        Comment


        • #19
          Geena Davis founded an institute to promote what she believes to be gender equality in the movie industry, some may know of it. They have a Facebook page,
          https://www.facebook.com/GDIGM/
          If you go there you'll see they've made a piece of software called the Geena Davis Index Quotient (GD-IQ), that measures the amount of time in popular movies given to male and female characters. They also think Wonder Woman is great. I made the point that men get most of the time in WW, as their the ones being slaughtered! And I made a comment on their FB page, and as they pre-moderate I don't think they'll allow it to show on the page. I made a comment on the review of WW in the Guardian, the most liberal of British newspapers, about the violence in the film being against men, and how that isn't equality, and the comment was promptly deleted by the mods. Feminists, it seems, don't tolerate discussion. Still, I maybe wrong, and perhaps Ms Davis FB page will publish my comment. For your information, this is what I submitted,

          GD-IQ shows men have more time on screen than women in popular tv and film. That's true of Wonder Woman, as German soldiers are lined up for slaughter, and if there was a study of the male/female proportion of violent death in action films it would show most of those killed are men. WW, like other movie heroines, and heroes, kills men in numbers, and we're told this is gender equality. I disagree. I've written a short story of a gang of female criminals who are taken down, violently, by a tough heroine, as I want to see if people react the same way when violence against women is presented as violence against men so commonly is, that is, as entertainment. In time I'll complete an illustrated version of this tale, as so far, reviews have been positive. I won't give a link here to where my story is, but I will say that those who find WW so empowering for women, and such thrilling entertainment, could ask themselves if they'd have felt the same if the people WW battered were female. Or even, should violence ever be presented as entertainment?

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Plato the 2nd View Post
            And I made a comment on their FB page, and as they pre-moderate I don't think they'll allow it to show on the page. I made a comment on the review of WW in the Guardian, the most liberal of British newspapers, about the violence in the film being against men, and how that isn't equality, and the comment was promptly deleted by the mods. Feminists, it seems, don't tolerate discussion.
            I find this trend extremely disheartening. There can never be any discussion, never any coming together when one side completely and irrevocably shuts out the other.

            I was recently blocked on a feminist leaning site. I'm still unsure why. It could have been the Penn and Teller video that I posted explaining why the Militia part of the 2nd Amendment doesn't actually change the meaning. I would entertain arguments as to why it wasn't correct, but it certainly wasn't "abusive" or "trolling"

            The only other thing it really could have been was a post implying that there might, just maybe be reasons a person might carry a firearm other than shaking paranoia and fear. That maybe some people carry so they'll be in a position to help others should the need arise Again, I don't see how that could be argued as abusive or trolling

            But, the thing is, these feminist, and many "left-leaning" websites have decided that anything short of rigid adherence to their ideology is "trolling" and deserves / needs to be shut down.

            Hell, if you watch any of the VidCon BS you can see that Anita Sarkeesian honestly believes that arguments against her position are harassment.

            Yet in the very same thread people will scream about how the right doesn't communicate, they just want violence Their "opposition" is deliberately being caricatured. Couple that with the shutting out of dissenting opinions and you have rather effective "othering" And othering is the rationalization that precedes violence. Well, it wouldn't be okay to hurt a person, but <Race A> people aren't human like <Race B> people Well, it wouldn't be okay to hurt a person, but <Religion A> people aren't really human like <Religion B> people Well, it wouldn't be okay to hurt a person, but <Political Affiliation A> people aren't human like <Political Affiliation B> people.
            But if you even point out how dangerous the de-humanizing of groups of people are, then you're banned for not being on board the hate train.

            I can't help but wonder if technology is bringing people together in even remotely close to the same numbers as it's driving people apart.

            Personal Echo Chambers for Everyone!!
            Last edited by Mifune; 07-02-2017, 03:30 AM.
            "...but when she goes off you, she will not just walk away, she will walk away with your fucking skin in a jar." ~~ DoctorRandomercam
            "The laws of man, they don't apply when blood gets in a woman's eye" - The Black Keys

            Comment


            • #21
              Mifune, I share your dismay that arguments contrary to feminist orthodoxy are being silenced at every opportunity. My comment on Geena Davis#s FB page hasn't appeared, and as comments there appear in numbers each day, it's clear they won't allow mine.
              30 years ago I had sympathy with feminism, I felt women had grounds for complaint, but today feminism is totally bonkers. It's like a religion, extreme and refusing to allow any discussion outside the parameters feminist thinkers have determined. I don't think it represents women now, but it is having an impact on society. That's why I'd like people to like my FB page, to comment on it, even if you don't agree with my analysis, it'll start a little alternative conversation to that of the feminists. We can encourage each other here, but if you want to change the world you've got to speak to the world, and Facebook is a good place to start.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by voidspawn View Post
                Good position to take. As someone old enough to remember some of the original launch stories, I get annoyed at the way characters are subverted, and the way the original creators, in this case two men (fembots ignore that fact - males creating female gender positive characters) have their character corrupted. There was a subtlety to Wonder Woman (name is terrible but wth), in that Themyscira was based on Greek myths of Amazons who were a male excluding society, they killed men and boys who arrived on that island. That was based on a long standing enmity, in the past that was caused by the controlling nature of Gods, some trying to control through gifts of magic and others through deception, but the yadda yadda backstory didn't really matter, it was a flip flop of rebels becoming the new oppressors. Diana as a character was appealing because she went against the grain of her society's sexism, she was motivated by justice. In all of those characters at the time, it was justice that was the highest principle and endlessly explored. It was lapped up by fans like myself.

                The corruption of warped justice as an excuse to beat up, and now to just kill is the modern version. The first corruption was the WW2 use of comics that didn't help quality story telling based on characters who sought justice, WW2 propaganda rapidly warped stories to rather hate promoting / justify killing agendas. Now we see the same thing, it's ruthless violence, stereotyping and misrepresenting classes of people, attaching the evil trait to them and then it's okay to slaughter them. This has never been done to women, never once have I ever seen the mindless slaughter of women portrayed as a social good, how many times do we have to watch that being done to men not only as entertainment but promoted as a social good.

                It does have an adverse effect on culture, but worse also is that our culturally dominant forces (like the media) already regard it as okay, it's deeply embedded. That is demonstrated by the countless real events of genocidal acts against males that are ignored.
                I agree, especially with the bit I've emboldened. In the case of the WW film, as in so many other instances, the justification for inflicting violence is simply that those being battered and killed are men. No more justification, it's assumed, is needed. Yet the men WW destroys are simply soldiers, doing their duty, as America, and the UK, expect their soldiers to do.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Deidre View Post
                  Great post, voidspawn. It makes one wonder though...are movies an illustration of our culture or do they shape the culture? I thought that while reading your post. Same with presidents. The losing side gets angry at a new president but doesn't that new president merely reflect the choice of society? (Majority)

                  I don't like super hero movies, in general. Mainly because it creates this idea that we aren't good enough as humans to solve our problems, that we need to be super human. Or we need a super hero to idolize and those films are often lost on me. I like realistic plots a bit better, especially stories of human triumph against adversity.
                  Me too. One female led film I love is Alien. Firstly because of the awesome alien created by Mr Geiger, that the film isn't anti-male, and that the heroine, Ripley, is no super human, just a gutsy individual who does her best.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Voidspawn, your message number 18 is profoundly thought provoking, but for the moment I'd like to concentrate on this extract.

                    *movies have a very long history as deliberate propaganda, Germany, UK, Russia, US, China etc:

                    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...f_World_War_II
                    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...933%E2%80%9345
                    http://www.imdb.com/list/ls076748682/

                    It's a huge area, and it goes deep into society even now. It's
                    done because it works. Not individually, you don't just make one and forget it, it is used to establish and sell a narrative.

                    Propaganda in film in our free western world is more subtle, but even more effective at brain washing than that of dictatorships. There's an apparent diversity in the moral arguments put forward in the fantasy's of our cinema, and tv. But apart from the occasional exception that diversity is contained within a particular, narrow, range. So it is with the feminist message in film, the message of different films will vary slightly, which then limits discussion to the same boundaries as the films. Any contrary opinion, if it's even allowed on say, a tv debate show, is ridiculed and dismissed as misogynistic nonsense. Condemned, or laughed at, but not discussed.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Plato the 2nd View Post
                      Propaganda in film in our free western world is more subtle
                      You must be joking.

                      but even more effective at brain washing than that of dictatorships.
                      That, however, is very true.

                      M

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Plato the 2nd View Post
                        Me too. One female led film I love is Alien. Firstly because of the awesome alien created by Mr Geiger, that the film isn't anti-male, and that the heroine, Ripley, is no super human, just a gutsy individual who does her best.
                        Feel the same. That's a great example!

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Yesterday, for the first time, I came across Cassie Jay. I expect everybody here knows of her, and most likely have seen The Red Pill, so I'm a bit behind the crowd. To make up I've spent the last three hours watching reviews of the movie on Youtube and interviews with her. One comment by Cassie struck a chord with me, when she said men's rights activists were were asking if, in a variety of scenarios, "would this be acceptable if the gender roles were reversed." Plug for my story coming up! That was why I wrote an action tale of a heroine fighting bad girls, to see if people reacted the same way as they do to fiction were women slaughter men, as in Wonder Woman. There has been comments on my story in every web site I've mentioned it, except this one, which has surprised me. It's not my place to lecture people, but I am surprised that nobody here has seen fit to read this short tale and make a comment.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Plato the 2nd View Post
                            Yesterday, for the first time, I came across Cassie Jay. I expect everybody here knows of her, and most likely have seen The Red Pill, so I'm a bit behind the crowd. To make up I've spent the last three hours watching reviews of the movie on Youtube and interviews with her. One comment by Cassie struck a chord with me, when she said men's rights activists were were asking if, in a variety of scenarios, "would this be acceptable if the gender roles were reversed." Plug for my story coming up! That was why I wrote an action tale of a heroine fighting bad girls, to see if people reacted the same way as they do to fiction were women slaughter men, as in Wonder Woman. There has been comments on my story in every web site I've mentioned it, except this one, which has surprised me. It's not my place to lecture people, but I am surprised that nobody here has seen fit to read this short tale and make a comment.
                            I'd be interested in reading it, but I've missed the link to it. Also do have to admit, there is a large volume of material to keep up with and I fall behind quite often; basically every time work pressures gather up.

                            Extremely relevant point you make about the reaction to female on female violence vs the reaction to female on male violence. It's been a big topic in MHRM discussion on the aspect as you state the double standards shown in portraying female on male violence. We do follow culturally commentating fiction, but also here especially there is a lot of reality to it, a lot of real experiences, a lot of really shitty experiences. Relationships with abusive partners, abusive mothers, witnessing the derogation of fathers, being set up by colleagues at work, false accusations and other horrible experiences. That isn't true for all people here, there are many members who have solid backgrounds and have made successful lives and relationships, and they come and join because they care about fairness, justice and the future. But you'll probably have a higher percentage of people here arriving because of bad experiences. For many years AVfM and this forum especially has literally been the only place for many many people to be able to say their red pill story and get a supportive perspective on it. We've all been reading each others stories and trying to suggest ways forward for quite some time, and the regulars are always ready to offer support to new arrivals.

                            I think it's really great that you've created this story and pushed to publish it, and I look forward to hearing about it's progress and do hope that it makes a statement. It may seem topsy turvy that this is the slowest place to latch on to it, but perhaps that's because here it might be the rawest nerve or something. I'm sure the feedback you get will be interesting when it eventually starts flowing, but in many other places you'll get a faster response because it's so unusual a notion to those people that your story is their first exposure to it, here violent and abusive natures of people has had depth, breadth and nuance in it's discussion for some time.
                            "...especially when it comes to communication, it can be observed, if it is not a negotiation it's a war."
                            Originally posted by menrppl2
                            Can't live with em, life is great without them.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              voidspawn, you make thought provoking points. Here's the link to 'They call her Petal',

                              https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B8z...ew?usp=sharing.

                              It's a short read, 15 minutes at the most to completely read it.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Plato the 2nd View Post
                                voidspawn, you make thought provoking points. Here's the link to 'They call her Petal',

                                https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B8z...ew?usp=sharing.

                                It's a short read, 15 minutes at the most to completely read it.
                                I've read it now. But firstly we do have a writer's corner forum, so if admin wants to move this that's cool, this reply is not on the OP topic.

                                So I was interested in how successfully your piece reversed the gender roles, and on that I'd say you focused on one aspect and chucked on maybe one more. Those made a visible point.

                                The focused aspects are which gender is portrayed as the receiving end for violence as entertainment, and the added one is your Fred character i.e. which gender is imbued with supernatural sensitive insight and can express themselves with artisan skills (in this case cooking) which leads to the interest and admiration of all but especially the opposite sex. Those bits I'd say you've ticked your boxes and offer up a fiction piece that can provoke some thoughts and discussion in people that are at least partially mindful towards such things.

                                However for myself I would say that the literary criticism would blur out a lot the intended narrative challenge effect. The junk comic style reminds me heavily of the Exploitation film genre, and has too many tropes in common with the subgenre of that: 'Women in Prison' films. Though you've steered away from some of the iconic representations of those, others you've used full on.

                                The male gender is represented, other than 'Fred' as dupes to be used, who deserve it because they are crooks or easily sexually exploited. Fred becomes the tokenistic good guy, but as a solo act this character once again reinforces the sexist 'one good man, the rest are disposable' trope. Which is one of the most pernicious anti male characterisations, pushing men into seeking the male role that serves and pleases women rather than building their own life. To challenge that don't need to remove Fred, but you do have to be willing to portray other male characters as holding equal worth and social value, including male characters who are not there to please or impress women, and male characters who are appealing to women simply from their male qualities, such as masculine, hard working, straight talking, etc. In your piece the male spectrum (which I acknowledge may be intentionally absent) go from crooked sex dupe to Fred with nothing else.

                                However contextually to this piece character development is hardly a strong point. The females it seems are all pure comic book fantasy. Again this is likely an artefact of the genre you've chosen to use as a vehicle, but from super villainess to superheroine, all with the excessive sexual appeal icon, it pushes the piece deep into pure cartoon comic rather than graphic novel style. I use these visual type forms to describe it quite deliberately as everything reads like it was intended to be a visual piece, it reads like a series of storyboard panels of set piece violence with minimal linking plot - again I assume that is intentional but for myself it's of limited appeal. I do like something to have some plot, I really don't have a clue what the plot was in your piece. That on the one had reinforces your intent of violence as entertainment (with women doing it rather than men), but on the other detracts from any character connection or even being entertaining.

                                This to me makes it flawed as a social commentary because it is very cartoony, it's violence in a silly film, despite some allusions through graphic type statements of violence, it reads like pretend, where plenty of tomato ketchup is thrown around and actors spit around a tic tac or two to represent broken teeth. The kind of depiction of violence where no one really gets hurt and the actors can all get up dust off and be ready for scene two, perhaps with a plaster on their cheek. I know you work at making the point about hospitalisation, but that's more like a gag than a consequence.

                                This adds up to feeling like a piece which doesn't really hit the nerve it's intending to, and feels more like a parody or pastiche for the criticism of a genre which is already and intentionally visibly bad.

                                This isn't putting the gender reversal to illustrate the male experience as targets of violence, that no one cares about other than how entertainingly they get dismembered, which goes hand in hand with the more damaging subtexts. I.e. males and females get killed for entertainment in certain genres, women in horror movies, men in action movies, and there is plenty of crossover for sure. But the subtext doesn't change, males are killed and the entertainment factor is men as a gender deserve it, they are brutes, dupes, creeps and the audience should be positively entertained by their demise, females are killed and the entertainment factor is emotional drama, they are victims, innocents, courageously but fatally defiant, the audience should feel for their plight.

                                In a real sense in your piece I think you've cartooned it so much that even though you've attempted to make that point, it misses it. Your women are rubber dolls, CCG game sprites that not only can be regenerated back to their sexual power status for free but don't actually represent women. Making them pretty much universally male fantasy types, with constant references to tight fitting clothes and big boobs, gives this the edge of mud wrestling or a catfight at Hooters.

                                However final note, challenging narrative is really hard, writing is a craft that even the best appeals to its segmented audience, and pulp fiction isn't my particular bag so I've limited commentary on it. You've done it at least, you've put words to it, created female characters and been willing to place them in both the roles of villain and hero with violence as their main thought pattern. That at least, will hopefully get some conversation from readers. As a writer you should definitely keep writing, and polishing your craft, sending up genres is probably a good idea. A good vehicle for getting message out without it being preaching.
                                Last edited by voidspawn; 07-05-2017, 11:13 AM.
                                "...especially when it comes to communication, it can be observed, if it is not a negotiation it's a war."
                                Originally posted by menrppl2
                                Can't live with em, life is great without them.

                                Comment

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