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  • Toxic Masculinity and Other Dubious Subjects

    I'm not a metal health expert, so I'm willing to defer to those who have more background in the subject. I'm also happy to be directed to good research if a layman can understand it and it isn't hidden behind pay walls.

    If I understand the argument correctly Toxic masculinity is the concept that men, through social conditioning, are taught to suppress their emotions to the detriment of both themselves, and those around them. To me, the theory amounts to an assertion that men are essentially damaged women, and that the world would be a better place if we'd all just cry more. Feminist scholars like to use this theory to explain the spike in male suicide rates, right before changing the subject.

    I have a few problems with the theory. For one, even if I accept its premises, I'm not sure that it explains the suicide crisis. If Toxic Masculinity is a constant, how can it be used to explain a change in outcomes? In other words, If toxic Masculinity has always been around, something else must be linked to the spike.

    I'm not even sure that the premises are particularly sound. While I can concede that men are, broadly speaking, less overtly expressive than women, can that difference be explained by other factors? Do men actually suppress their emotions, or do they just express them differently compared to women? To what extent are differences linked to biology, if at all?

    If men are limiting their expression through conditioned behavior, is it reasonable to accept that female expressiveness is actually the better way? This one doesn't make sense to me, as feminists often like to point out that women attempt suicide more often than men do.By this reasoning, women aren't healthier, they just suck at suicide. If men were less stoical, would the problem actually escalate? None of this argument seems internally consistent to me. It also seems dismissive. It seems like a way to dodge the responsibility to fix the underlying problems linked to suicide rates. It's the fault of men for felling bad, and not the conditions that make them feel that way.

    I'm hyper-simplifying the question. I don't have much respect for the concept of toxic masculinity. I'm just wondering if any parts of it are valid. I'd love to write about this subject, because I see it used against men all the time in the media. But I don't know where to look for unbiased information. The pairing of the negatively weighted "toxic" with the essence of our being is hardly reaffirming, but I don't see much counterpoint to the narrative from non-feminists. I'm open to more feedback from anyone better informed. I'm willing to be corrected if I'm off base on anything.

  • #2
    you're over thinking it.

    its basically anything masculine. not suppressing shit. its used as a description of anything masculine..and to vilify it.

    you should look up TOM on youtube. his handle is "MEN ARE GOOD" he's tackled a lot of these subjects and will enlighten you.
    Originally posted by MatrixTransform
    where were you before you put yourself last?
    Originally posted by TheNarrator
    Everywhere I travel, tiny life. Single-serving sugar, single-serving cream, single pat of butter. The microwave Cordon Bleu hobby kit. Shampoo-conditioner combos, sample-packaged mouthwash, tiny bars of soap. The people I meet on each flight? They're single-serving friends.

    Comment


    • #3
      Thanks for the info. I'll check it out.

      Comment


      • #4
        And for what it's worth, overthinking thing is what I do. A lot of feminist arguments don't stand up well against the evidence. The anti-male narrative has the weight of the establishment behind it, though. Strong counter-narratives are needed. I'm thinking about starting a new blog, maybe just celebrating men for a change. I haven't come up with a clear focus, but I want to have some solid content before I start it.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by FailureToCrash View Post
          And for what it's worth, overthinking thing is what I do. A lot of feminist arguments don't stand up well against the evidence. The anti-male narrative has the weight of the establishment behind it, though. Strong counter-narratives are needed. I'm thinking about starting a new blog, maybe just celebrating men for a change. I haven't come up with a clear focus, but I want to have some solid content before I start it.
          i think from your comments that you're a newly red pilled type.

          i think you're bright..i think giving you 6-12 months will mean that you'll realize there is no fixing this.
          society is collapsing.. the "fix" will happen once society crumbles and men become valuable again..then women will see their value..and things will return to normal. it happened after rome, and it will happen here.
          Originally posted by MatrixTransform
          where were you before you put yourself last?
          Originally posted by TheNarrator
          Everywhere I travel, tiny life. Single-serving sugar, single-serving cream, single pat of butter. The microwave Cordon Bleu hobby kit. Shampoo-conditioner combos, sample-packaged mouthwash, tiny bars of soap. The people I meet on each flight? They're single-serving friends.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by FailureToCrash View Post
            And for what it's worth, overthinking thing is what I do. A lot of feminist arguments don't stand up well against the evidence. The anti-male narrative has the weight of the establishment behind it, though. Strong counter-narratives are needed. I'm thinking about starting a new blog, maybe just celebrating men for a change. I haven't come up with a clear focus, but I want to have some solid content before I start it.
            Mate, you dont need a blog.
            Just hold on to yer balls
            "Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one" - Charles Mackay

            And therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; It tolls for thee. - Donne

            "What we are seeing in this headless misandry is a grand display of the Tyranny of the Underdog: 'I am a wretchedly longstanding victim; therefore I own no burden of adult accountability, nor need to honor any restraint against my words and actions. In fact, all efforts to restrain me are only further proof of my oppressed condition.'
            "It is the most perfect trump-card against accountable living ever devised." - Gladden Schrock

            "What remains for most men in modern life is a world of expectation without reward, burden without honor and service without self" - Paul Elam

            Comment


            • #7
              Hi,

              a very interesting avenue.
              "A lot of feminist arguments don't stand up well against the evidence" is among the understartments of the decade.

              Allow me a few comments to what you write, and a few remarks of my own.

              Originally posted by FailureToCrash View Post
              I'm not a metal health expert
              No one is, not even the mental health experts

              I'm also happy to be directed to good research
              Lack of academic works tackling feminism is one of the problems of the MHRM.

              If I understand the argument correctly Toxic masculinity is the concept that men, through social conditioning, are taught to suppress their emotions to the detriment of both themselves, and those around them.
              Yes; and/or perhaps even a little wider than that: toxic masculinity is a role imposed on men that consist in men's policing societal behaviour in both men and women in order to safeguard the power structures of the Patriarchy. Suppressing emotions is just one part of it, but is that part which is most immediately visible as a damage that Patriarchy does to men.

              To me, the theory amounts to an assertion that men are essentially damaged women
              Yes.
              If you're lucky, you'll meet feminists who think that men are fixable. More and more of them do not think so.

              and that the world would be a better place if we'd all just cry more.
              "You just need to confess, and all this will be over ...".
              Best viewed through the PUA lens, this one.

              Feminist scholars like to use this theory to explain the spike in male suicide rates, right before changing the subject.
              Well, if you read "men's self-help books" from Seneca via Castiglione and Gracian to Schopenhauer, it's all very stoic;
              a mass of litterature on men's self-repression, overcoming of self, etc,. etc.
              Perhaps there will be those who can't realize the ideals, and fall by the wayside. Nobody knows, bwcause nobody has studied that.
              Feminism's problem here is that they claim to know, although they most emphatically have not studied it, and certainly never asked any man.

              I have a few problems with the theory. For one, even if I accept its premises, I'm not sure that it explains the suicide crisis. If Toxic Masculinity is a constant, how can it be used to explain a change in outcomes? In other words, If toxic Masculinity has always been around, something else must be linked to the spike.
              Oh, nothing a few good, supporting ad-hoc hypotheses can't fix.
              But yes, they usually settle for changing the subject. No one calls them on it, so they're safe enough.

              I'm not even sure that the premises are particularly sound. While I can concede that men are, broadly speaking, less overtly expressive than women, can that difference be explained by other factors? Do men actually suppress their emotions, or do they just express them differently compared to women? To what extent are differences linked to biology, if at all?
              Make a list of artists throughout the ages, including great novelists and poets.
              It's not as if men don't have emotions and do no express them.
              IME women need identification in order to "understand"; they struggle when something is alien to them.
              I think many men will have experienced that talking to a woman about what you feel is like trying to arm-wrestle goldfish.
              So many necesary requirements just aren't there.

              None of this argument seems internally consistent to me. It also seems dismissive.
              Yeees ...
              Above you have talked about explanations; as if feminism's project is to actually understand. To understand in order to improve.
              But it isn't. That view is exactly backward. Feminism is a desire to act backed by rote slogans where needed to overcome verbal resistance.

              Take Patriarchy. Or, wait, not yet. Go read the Wiki page on "Antifeminism", which is where they give away the "Feminism just means equality" game.
              Feminism requires belief in the following three dogmas: Gender is a construct. It's a man's world. We should improve the lot of women.

              Patriarchy is that fabulous beast that makes it so that all repression, both of women and men, stems from men; and so, in order to liberate men, we first need to liberate women. When women are completely free, when Patriarchy has fallen, then, and only then, will men be free, too.

              Which means that putting resources into equality measures for men is not only useless, it is downright counter-productive - also for men - just a waste of an overall perfectly fine dollar that could otherwise have gone to some deserving woman, thereby hastening the demise of Patriarchy.

              IOW, feminists have created a subsidies machine that provides them with millions of equality dollars, "and they're all mine!"
              That's what you hve to fight.

              It seems like a way to dodge the responsibility to fix the underlying problems linked to suicide rates.
              It's the fault of men for felling bad, and not the conditions that make them feel that way.
              If you go the wiki page on suicide, it will tell you that more men fail to survive suicide because they have more access to guns, a method of no return,
              while women wisely stick to two Tylenol and a 911 call.
              IOW, it's not that men kill themselves for other, more or stronger reasons than women, it's that these klutzes fumble the tool.
              AFAICS the "gun" remark is mentioned in one single, older study as a "maybe", but that's how they operate: they are masters of fishing out a detail like that
              and dressing it up as the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
              Knowing that this is deliberate makes one a bit icy around the heart at the thought of how cold-blooded they are.

              But I don't know where to look for unbiased information.
              Under U for Unicorn, i.e. nowhere. ToxM is a nonsense term invented by nonsense people as a wall of noise they use to keep outsiders out.

              That was a bit on "deeper" theory.
              At the same time, I think it also pays to look at just the weird stuff wives and girlfriends are able to make issues of, i.e. ordinary, everyday quarrels.
              I think much of the methodology is the same, so one should be able to profitably extract structure from the simple cases, detail from the academic stuff.

              You have a lot of work before you, so ... good luck.


              M

              Comment


              • #8
                Thanks for the thorough and thoughtful response. You make a lot of good points, most of which I''m at least somewhat aware of.

                I do want to present a counterpoint, because the TM narrative is pushed constantly, even when it isn't called by name. One of the morning shows did a piece recently, and it was pure propaganda.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Manalysis View Post
                  M
                  With apologies to Orwell....

                  Two balls good, no balls better.
                  "Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one" - Charles Mackay

                  And therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; It tolls for thee. - Donne

                  "What we are seeing in this headless misandry is a grand display of the Tyranny of the Underdog: 'I am a wretchedly longstanding victim; therefore I own no burden of adult accountability, nor need to honor any restraint against my words and actions. In fact, all efforts to restrain me are only further proof of my oppressed condition.'
                  "It is the most perfect trump-card against accountable living ever devised." - Gladden Schrock

                  "What remains for most men in modern life is a world of expectation without reward, burden without honor and service without self" - Paul Elam

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by MatrixTransform View Post
                    With apologies to Orwell....

                    Two balls good, no balls better.
                    what about 1 ball? where does that fit in?

                    pretty sure i read about people having 3 as well... if you're gonna make a ranking system you really need to commit to it matrix!
                    Originally posted by MatrixTransform
                    where were you before you put yourself last?
                    Originally posted by TheNarrator
                    Everywhere I travel, tiny life. Single-serving sugar, single-serving cream, single pat of butter. The microwave Cordon Bleu hobby kit. Shampoo-conditioner combos, sample-packaged mouthwash, tiny bars of soap. The people I meet on each flight? They're single-serving friends.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by TheNarrator View Post
                      pretty sure i read about people having 3 as well.
                      3 balls? ...made me laugh.
                      That's a pretty toxic situation right there. Overdose on Growacet?
                      Maybe surgery would be an option.

                      Just to put a finer point on my silly joke ...

                      More words is not the answer to the wimminz lose-lose proposal.
                      Every time you (avec external gonads of indeterminate number) open yr mouth it is essentially considered to be rape.
                      The same way Walmart Greeters are 'hello' fucking you when you walk in.
                      It has got to the point where the intention to speak is roughly equivalent to intention to rape .. ie Mens Rea (no pun intended)
                      How is it that one side talks and its all purity and saviour, and the other side cant speak for all the evil they spew?

                      This is what Manalyst, FailureToCrash et al. fail to understand.
                      Yous have been kafka-trapped and it makes zero difference what you say.

                      Do this, dont do that, work mule, faster and shut the fuck up ... or we are are gonna ruin yr life.
                      Hmm ... the thing about having balls these people dont seem to understand is that with balls yr only real function in the universe is hunt, kill, or fuck ... or utterly and completely not-give-a-fuck.
                      dont know if anybody gets my nihilistic drift here. but I'm gonna continue anyway.


                      Everyday in every way a man is being asked to nail himself to the cross...or else.

                      Really? Or else what Bitch? You'll throw me to the abyss? Yeah, well Im gonna drag you in too by the hair ya stupid witch.
                      If I dont work, you starve too.
                      If I dont talk, your words are just background noise

                      I dont give a single flying-fuck about yr mother's new boyfriend, yr daughter's glass ceiling, or whether you have a phobia of elevators.
                      Yr mother's vag can heal over, yr retarted daughter can go do a useful degree, and if you wont get in an elevator you can walk up 5 flights....but I certainly fucking wont.
                      And by the way when you finally get to Level 5, you'll find me chatting up the pretty nurse.
                      ¿lo entiendes?

                      Awesome ... now yr starting to get what I mean.
                      Last edited by MatrixTransform; 01-12-2018, 07:51 PM.
                      "Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one" - Charles Mackay

                      And therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; It tolls for thee. - Donne

                      "What we are seeing in this headless misandry is a grand display of the Tyranny of the Underdog: 'I am a wretchedly longstanding victim; therefore I own no burden of adult accountability, nor need to honor any restraint against my words and actions. In fact, all efforts to restrain me are only further proof of my oppressed condition.'
                      "It is the most perfect trump-card against accountable living ever devised." - Gladden Schrock

                      "What remains for most men in modern life is a world of expectation without reward, burden without honor and service without self" - Paul Elam

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        doesn't matter if it is one woman, or whole gaggle of them... same message.

                        Any blue-pill beta-fuck that doesnt understand yet that in one sentence they'll be doomed as a future rapist, and in the next sentence patted on the back for working harder (quietly). deserves his fate.
                        Whinging, naggin, moaning full-o-shits.


                        woman: YOU...misoginist! ... shut the fuck up and change the broken light bulb in my room.
                        me: do it yrself you strong independent woman
                        woman: but I'm scared of heights, electricity, the dark etc etc.
                        me: well, yr fucked arent ya? Whats the matter, dont like living in a dark cave on your own ?
                        woman: if you loved me...etc
                        me: fuck off


                        ...giving zero fucks has the consequence of letting them own their problems
                        "Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one" - Charles Mackay

                        And therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; It tolls for thee. - Donne

                        "What we are seeing in this headless misandry is a grand display of the Tyranny of the Underdog: 'I am a wretchedly longstanding victim; therefore I own no burden of adult accountability, nor need to honor any restraint against my words and actions. In fact, all efforts to restrain me are only further proof of my oppressed condition.'
                        "It is the most perfect trump-card against accountable living ever devised." - Gladden Schrock

                        "What remains for most men in modern life is a world of expectation without reward, burden without honor and service without self" - Paul Elam

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          good post matrix failed to give you rep.
                          Originally posted by MatrixTransform
                          where were you before you put yourself last?
                          Originally posted by TheNarrator
                          Everywhere I travel, tiny life. Single-serving sugar, single-serving cream, single pat of butter. The microwave Cordon Bleu hobby kit. Shampoo-conditioner combos, sample-packaged mouthwash, tiny bars of soap. The people I meet on each flight? They're single-serving friends.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            I have the shits this morning :-)
                            "Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one" - Charles Mackay

                            And therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; It tolls for thee. - Donne

                            "What we are seeing in this headless misandry is a grand display of the Tyranny of the Underdog: 'I am a wretchedly longstanding victim; therefore I own no burden of adult accountability, nor need to honor any restraint against my words and actions. In fact, all efforts to restrain me are only further proof of my oppressed condition.'
                            "It is the most perfect trump-card against accountable living ever devised." - Gladden Schrock

                            "What remains for most men in modern life is a world of expectation without reward, burden without honor and service without self" - Paul Elam

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by MatrixTransform View Post
                              This is what Manalyst, FailureToCrash et al. fail to understand.
                              Nah, disagree. I for my prt am talking exacty about that the oppo doesn't debate, they bludgeon.
                              Dispelling errors is ot about reforming feminists until they see the ight of truth, but removing disinformation in the head of 3rd parties.

                              the thing about having balls these people dont seem to understand is that with balls yr only real function in the universe is hunt, kill, or fuck ... or utterly and completely not-give-a-fuck.
                              Sure, sitting on the porch with a cold one, delighting oneself with scenarios of successful bio-psychological oneupmanship.
                              But there are so many more types of situations out there in the world.

                              M

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