Perspectives on Feminism & MRM

[Dee]

I originally started off this post as a reply to Mr_e & Plummer, but it's turned into a thread that I now want to share with others.



mr_e

- First things first, I don't think I can bear watching sick children suffer, and I can't imagine the agony you went through watching your own child go through that ordeal. I hope that everyone is doing well now, healthy and happy. Word of advice on illness: stay clear of sugar; its immediate effect on the immune system is devastating. Word of advice when healthy: stay clear of sugar, yes it's that bad. I'm very familiar with The Fairly Odd Parents because it was the same exact program I was watching when my parents walked into the living room, turned on the dvd player, and sat me down to watch the movie Gandhi. Funny you should mention that show right now.

- Look mr_e, I am a third generation atheist, and I don't have a single religious relative in my family, immediate or extended. My parents raised me based on core principles that were drilled into all of us throughout childhood. They would say, "Dee, take everything you see within a critical mindset, including our own opinions. Be grateful for the gift of the Mind, which you can cultivate beyond measure. And you are only as worthy as how you treat others, how well you behave and how hard you work in life." Needless to say, I had an extraordinary childhood that established a solid foundation for me to continuously grow.

I think it's important to share this because I am now aware that we're on two different wavelengths, which isn't fair to either of us. I'm reaching out in hope that someone might reach back in order for us to learn from each other through this forum. I'm an atheist, yet I often catch myself looking at believers in complete awe, mesmerized over the inexplicable relationship they have with this supreme being they look up to. I'm not a believer but I do have faith .. in people, and I've always taken extreme offense at crude jokes atheists make about god, Jesus, and religion. And I often wonder, when has separation of church and state transformed from eradicating religious authority to maliciously attacking people's core beliefs that they hold so dear? It's unfair, pointless, and cruel .. and I personally find it very hurtful.

You don't have to be the person under attack to see injustice and feel the pain of "the other," which is exactly why I made a point of explaining just how cruel and inhumane all these feminist writings were. Upon reading the writings to which you initially referred me 2 weeks ago, I felt it a priority to tell you how dangerous such ideologies were, dangerous to the point of actually legitimizing your abuse. And I really thought you understood what I was trying to tell you because of that precise phrase. Anyone familiar with the term "legislated abuse" would automatically associate it with humans' darkest hours: slavery, the apartheid, colonization, the dehumanization of Jews and more. That's why I used this specific term, to let you know you're on very dangerous grounds as men.

But you didn't want to hear that did you, mr_e? I doubt you even took note of it. Cuz you came back with the same discourse that revolved around emotions rather than actual problems and reality.

I came in here to learn and was intently curious about why all these men were voicing out so many concerns. I may not know a lot about men, but I do know they don't complain much, which is probably one of the reasons most of them die off before their spouses. So I figured there had to be a legitimate reason for them to speak out now, and it turned out I was right. The reason I say I was right is because I took the effort to learn about first, second, and third wave feminism within a critical mindset, a sense of justice, and a genuine eagerness to learn.

And I realized what the main problem was almost immediately upon reading about second wave feminism, which as I explained earlier laid the foundation of what I now call "the legislated abuse of men." From then on, I started writing, to you and to other members, about how destructive the laws were regarding: marital property laws, reproductive rights, domestic abuse, and child custody and support to say the least. I explained in previous entries how dysfunctional these laws were as they re-defined marriage as a defective victim/abuser relationship, and I characterized the mentality behind it as sick. Now, try to understand that this is coming from someone who grew up in a "feminist-based system" as many would phrase it, and who has little to no background on MRA. Yet, I was able to come up with these conclusions right off the bat by briefly reading about these issues, influenced only by reason and sense of justice.

And after taking off some time to watch The Red Pill last night, I found out that these were some of the main issues that were brought up, which I was able to realize on my own. True, maybe they were discussed or handled differently, but we were pretty much in total agreement. The first thing that came to mind after watching it was .. this ain't no red pill, this is the reality in which we live loud and clear. The only thing that kinda bothered me about the film though was when an MRA activist initiated a "defense" about how MRA isn't about sexism or keeping a woman barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen. I didn't think it was fair to him to bring up or defend himself against a crime he didn't commit. It's a position feminists place you in and want you to speak out from within. However, it was a great start in documentary film.

But disregard that last note about the film, which I saw just last night, why didn't you hear me when I pointed out all these issues to you earlier? The thing is, mr_e, I came in here to learn about you .. and I did. Why don't you attempt to understand me?

I think it's because of that "hate discourse" that you're so intent on bearing despite its obvious and unnecessary strain on you.

And speaking of hate, I really don't know why voidspawn, and probably yourself and others, thought I was hurt because of the words you phrased about women; maybe it had to do with how you perceive and understand things. I wasn't crying for me, mr_e, I was crying for you. I was crying over the agony you must be feeling and the huge amount of love that's needed to restore what you do not possess anymore. Watching someone say such things is like watching a slaughtered person who's still writhing to stay alive, and it's a painful sight to watch. It was also very strange to hear voidspawn suggest that I felt threatened. Why should I feel threatened when it was your humanity at risk, your soul that's being slaughtered, and your life in ruins.

It is a thousand times better to be wronged than it is to wrong someone; I'm strong enough to overcome other people's mistakes, but my own conscience will be the death of me. When I read those words you posted, I vowed to do my part and help alleviate the situation. And although I'm thankful for what voidspawn said about my "rising above hate," he was wrong. I wasn't rising above hate but above the entire situation, which allows you to understand and help, as well as transforms you into strength itself." And it's an indescribable feeling of positivity, power, and invincibility; it's what leaders are made out of. When you rise above the situation, you feel like a supreme being you feel like God.

But you don't wanna hear that. You'd rather I go, "Oh my gosh, now I understand what you're getting at, and how come I didn't see that before?" The thing is, I know where you're coming from, so why don't you try to see my standpoint? You'd rather I march right next to you saying "they hate us" and all that bullshit. Well I'm sorry, I'm an objective person and believe that objectivity is the key to resolving issues. This is the main difference between you and me, and I'll show you how.

When you first posted the feminist writings 2 weeks ago, I immediately read them and understood the resentment behind them. Since it was second-wave feminist writings, my immediate reaction was to look up the legislation they created because such discourse is sick, which I also pointed out earlier. And upon primary research, I concluded that these laws were indeed as unjust as these writings were sick, which I also mentioned. And the thing about hate is, it doesn't hurt as much as legislation does, so when all these resentful women (and deluded men) created these laws based off these sentiments, they instigated something much more damaging than hate: the legitimized abuse of men.

That's how I reacted to such writings, whereas you're still hung up on re-reading them rather than change your discourse to attain your rights. Hate is part of life and who we are as people, but transforming hateful discourse into policy is another much more dangerous matter, which is what happened in your situation. Also, hate is a human attribute and dies off when the person dies. And believe it or not, that hate died off when these second-wave feminists died off, leaving you with nothing but a sorry ass, ****ed up legislation that dehumanizes you as husbands, fathers, and men.

I'll give you an example on this specific point. A new legislation comes out based on a similarly nasty resentful discourse permitting men to physically abuse their female spouses. Men wouldn't commit that act at first, but 10 years into the legislation, many men would. Yet even if I were to physically undergo that abuse myself, I wouldn't attribute it to hate but to the system that allows such behavior; that's of course if I were logic-based. Look at slavery or the apartheid if you can't see it yet, a time when many people were able to like and make friends with "the dehumanized other" yet felt it within their right to abuse them. That's because they don't see it as hateful but lawful.

So when a woman withholds child visitation rights, robs half your hard-earned income, or gets nasty about child support, she is only acting based on the law telling her that it's within her rights as a human being to do so. Hell, some couples even get back together and remarry after all that bullshit they go through, which only proves the destructive nature of these inhumane laws towards men. These women aren't born to hate men, they're trained by the system, and they've been trained for quite some time too.

Think about how an audience would perceive the MRAs on The Red Pill if they had gone on camera and all they said was, "Feminists hate us, they all hate us and they're all about hate." Think of how meaningless this would seem to the public. Instead, these men went on camera and rightfully disclosed real concerns that hundreds of thousands of men are facing and are silent about to this day.

But none of that registers with you since you're still carrying all these resentful statements you read a long time ago that were expressed by mostly dead people at this point. And that's because you're emotionally-based and would be probably be more distressed if someone says, "I hate you, mr_e" rather than "You're so unfair, mr_e," whereas I would be more disturbed by the latter statement; I don't mind being hated and wouldn't be influenced by it and would still treat that person fairly. I would, however, be very distressed if someone calls me unfair .. that would really hurt cuz it's what my constitution is all about. You're driven by emotions, and people like you tend to be very forgiving as well. (Plummer if you say shit test one more time I swear to God).

But now that we're on the subject, here's a little thing you might not know about hate, and regarding this forum too. I was going to mention this earlier, but decided against it because I didn't want to hurt you in any way. I now realize it was a bad decision because I believe that what I have to say is in the benefit of all of us. Plus, you can take it cuz you're a man and all men are strong. I know that this type of stereotyping might be considered in itself discriminatory but I don't care; men have been brutalized long enough, and there's nothing worse to me than the sight of a broken man.

As for resentment, here's my two cents:

I found the first traces of hate, which as I mentioned before is a human trait, through one of your own threads, mr_e; and I think that many of you might not perceive the hate within them due to your own preoccupation with the hate & injustice directed at you. In any case, it was a MGTOW video that mainly talked about how men should treat women, including things like "string her along unaware," or "get her down on her knees to do what she's good at," etc. I then watched other MGTOW videos by Howard Dare and others, which included phrases like "all women are pigs, and no matter how much makeup you put on a pig it's still a pig." There were a lotta phrases of course but this is to name a few; unfortunately, this was directed at all women rather than feminists and/or specific groups.

Now regardless of these insults, I was still able to pinpoint the reasons behind why men were so frustrated with some women and did think these points were valid. Yet, the discourse itself was indeed a hateful one, and I believe it's as dehumanizing as those sentiments you presented. Let's look at many MGTOWs point of view on "stringing a woman along without her knowledge," for example. I don't think there's anything wrong about not wanting to get married or attached, as long as you disclose such statement way ahead during the relationship; this is called having integrity.

If you have a girlfriend and you're MGTOW, the only decent and acceptable thing to do is to tell her that you're never getting married right from the start. And it's crucial that you disclose the reasons behind that because it'll help her understand what the hell you're going through as men within society, which in turn will yield immediate results on the behavior of many women, as well as yield positive results with respect to your own situation. This is called individual activism and a wonderful form of opposition as opposed to the crap some guys are pulling now. I find that MGTOW videos such as these only teach men to be manipulative, spineless cowards rather than have the integrity they should possess, especially since they're asking for fairness, equality, and respect. Go with integrity and it will guarantee you the best results.

You speak about hateful feminist sentiments, mr_e, and make it sound as if they were spoken just yesterday although it's been quite a while since the last horrific statement was made in that regard. In the meantime, and because you're so consumed with sentiments rather than objectivity, you fail to see the hateful discourse that's taking place right now, which is mostly expressed by anti-feminist men (and deluded women) of course. I'm not going to give you specific examples but will tell you that the entire discourse of many of these videos purely talks about "how all women are animals, how they are all whores, sluts, and liars .. that they're evil, dumb, conceited, and need to be treated like trash." I watched video after video that seemed to exude nothing but hate.

And although these videos aren't considered legislation, they do affect thousands of followers who keep hearing that women are animals and should be treated like trash, which is bad for everybody really. It also exasperates your current situation and problems rather than solve them. I was able to understand the reasons behind these resentful sentiments and the frustration that many men feel today due to being marginalized, but the situation needs be dealt with correctly. There's a huge difference between helping create a documentary that explains your situation, which is a responsible and effective way to go about things, and between spouting off about how women are cunts & bitches who deserve abuse.

You have real problems that have been going on for decades. You live in a society that incriminates "the very maleness" of you. For decades now, any normal masculine trait that you show, such as shouting or normal physical confrontation, has been viewed as an abnormal violent nature and met with restraint. Society equates your movement with racism and misogyny rather than one through which you can attain your basic rights as men. This is why you shouldn't resist people who do understand, as well as step up your game by being objective and fair in order to get more people concerned, supportive, and involved.

Your heart's in the right place, mr_e, and all that's left is objectivity to kick in.





Officer Plummer

- First of all .. you're so mainstream it's almost adorable. And an ex-cop too? This is gonna be kinda like batman vs superman. Btw I'm both characters, you just sit there and read your comic :-)

- Let me start off by saying .. what on planet earth have you been listening to? Awalt, Amalt, shit-tests? When'd you ditch your own common sense and why?

- Let me explain this whole mess about Awalt by giving you this example:

- What do automatically do when you're speaking to someone and ask him questions, and the person right next to him keeps answering for him? You immediately ask for that person to speak for himself, right?

- It's called the right to self-representation, which we're all entitled to as human beings. If I were to learn about men, I wouldn't ask a woman to describe them for me .. I'd ask men to represent themselves. So why on earth would you let men define who we are as women and speak on our behalf? Why not allow us self-representation, listen to us, and then make up your own mind?

- I define myself, Plummer, not you, not my parents, and definitely not some youtuber saying all kindsa stuff that don't describe me in the least bit. I say what I mean and always assume that people are telling the truth and hope I never change. It's ok to be careful and aware, I guess, but assuming the worst about people's intentions towards you (let alone a partner) is a major flaw and not a good way to live. I think that losing faith in others only mirrors loss of faith in ourselves, our own ability to give, to trust and to love.

- As for "vanity", I don't quite see it the way you do. I believe most men and women have intrinsic traits within them. Are you familiar with the saying, "Men are attracted to what they see, while women are attracted to what they hear." I was sitting at a coffee shop one time and an older lady asked to sit at my table after we exchanged a couple of words. I now understand that she might have been a feminist because she kept attributing male traits to women, to which I disagreed. She said that women were attracted by the male form just like men were attracted to ours, and that it wasn't fair for women to have such "restrictions" on their attire while men can roam around half naked without anybody batting an eye. And the funniest thing is, when I explained my thoughts on how fair this was because of men and women's different natures, she walked away after telling me that it's "Jesus-loving women like you that's ruining it for us." I didn't understand then but was just thankful she had left. Kept looking over my shoulder to see if she'd come back too.

- Women look nice for you guys, just like men look or stare at women because it's their nature. And the way men are currently ostracized just for staring at women speaks volumes about how anti-male society has become. Of course, looking nice does not mean abusing guys by being nasty. When a guy makes the effort to let you know you're cute and takes the risk of asking you out, you're automatically indebted to him, and the least a girl can do is say thank you and be pleasant about it. Being nasty to a guy asking you out is like being handed a flower only to toss it on the floor and stomp on it.

- I still remember when dad unexpectedly came back early from work one day, while mom was surrounded by me and two of my brothers working on homework. She was wearing her glasses, which dad apparently spotted. So he motioned for us to keep quiet, snuck up behind mom and went, "Gotcha!" She immediately took her glasses off and both of them started laughing so hard, and then he hugged her. My mom's very pretty, yet on that day I realized that he'd never seen her wearing her glasses. I thought it was very cute how mom always wants look nice for him.

- In essence, what you perceive as vanity, I perceive as an adherence to our natural traits as genders, which I hope never changes. I also believe that trying to look nice is a form of love between couples.

- Also, there's a big difference between looking nice and between having a flawed perception of things that are to be considered valuable, and the latter is something that the media is trying hard to spread. I think that designer items, for example, should be boycotted and that designer industry should be torn down. I believe that spending 300 dollars on some shoes simply because they carry the name of some dipshit, freak of a designer is a sin, especially given the fact that many people all over the world are dying off due to homelessness, disease-related illnesses, and hunger.

- And sadly, I think that the perception and relationship between many men and women is one that is currently built on suspicion and doubt, which leaves no room for hope or genuine happiness. I really hope I meet someone who hasn't been polluted by feminist or anti-feminist claims that men/women are bad so that we can build a healthy relationship together .. like a rancher up in Utah who's never heard of wifi.

- So I don't know what governs you, Plummer, but I'm planning on getting married and having four kids come hell or high water. And when I do get engaged, I'm gonna insist on choosing my own wedding ring to pick out the least expensive one out of consideration for his efforts in saving some money to get me something fancy. And when I do stay at home and receive my "allowance," I'm gonna spend it as scarcely as how hard he worked to earn it. This is not some cosmic wisdom or anything, merely an accurate awareness on what things really mean in life as opposed how they're inaccurately presented by others.

- Let's look at "domestic shelters", for example. The first thing they convey to women is that if you're in a relationship with a man, he will abuse you. I've always thought that having such shelters was wrong because it's pro-woman, one sided, and unfair. Let's suppose that my husband physically abused me, which is something that would never happen in reality cuz I wouldn't put myself in that position to begin with. But if it were to happen, the law would grant me the right to drag that man to jail without awarding him the chance to speak or actually learning about what happened. These domestic shelters don't give a damn if I were a loud mouth who constantly abused my partner emotionally to the point where he could only react how men instinctively react upon being severely threatened or cornered into confrontation .. hitting. That is both unfair and abusive.

- The thing is, there are legitimate concerns over the rights of men, and the best way to go about them is through raising our own self-awareness rather than spiral downward into more deluded misconceptions about one another.

- I have one life to live. This is my heaven and this is my hell. And I will steer my destiny according to my own morals, standards, and judgment rather than based on other people's convictions and thoughts. You should too.

- Try fitting that into one of your little categories, Officer.

- But I do appreciate you coming in here, mainstream, thinking you got game :-)

[Mifune]

Needless to say, I had an extraordinary childhood that established a solid foundation for me to continuously grow.

I think it's important to share this because I am now aware that we're on two different wavelengths, which isn't fair to either of us. I'm reaching out in hope that someone might reach back in order for us to learn from each other through this forum..
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- First of all .. you're so mainstream it's almost adorable. And an ex-cop too? This is gonna be kinda like batman vs superman. Btw I'm both characters, you just sit there and read your comic :-)

- Let me start off by saying .. what on planet earth have you been listening to?.
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- Try fitting that into one of your little categories, Officer.

- But I do appreciate you coming in here, mainstream, thinking you got game :-)

I'd be significantly more inclined to chew on the meat of your post if you hadn't drenched it in the gravy of your condescension.

[mr_e]

Hi Dee,

There's a lot to unpack in there and I'll come back to it later. I say/reply gently to you-- you think I don't know and am not aware of what is being done to me and people like me in the name of hateful feminism?

And yes, I do call it "hateful" because I refuse to look the other way, call it something else, use "euphemisms" or pleasant platitudes to disguise its ugly, sexist nature. I refuse to go along for another minute with the slander and hate that Feminism sends my way.

And I say to you-- gently-- you think I am unaware of the hateful policies and laws which have been enacted to my detriment? Do you think I am unaware of the situation for men on today's college campuses? Do you think I am unaware of the dangers of being "alone with a woman" can bring to a man in a professional setting-- or even a personal setting for that matter? Do you think I am unaware of the terrible slander and the associated loss in respect, appreciation and even the simple affordance of being an equal human being that hateful Feminism and their despicable minions has foisted upon men?

I understand completely what "legislated abuse" is, and what it means to me, as well as what it does to me. And frankly, as I think you already know, so do a whole lot of other people around here. Not everyone of course, but the awareness is definitely growing.

But I'll tell you something that you might or might not know...

Nobody ever lifts a finger to do anything about it. It isn't because they don't want to. It's because they are afraid-- very afraid. They have been conditioned to be afraid, probably all of their lives. They have seen what happens to people-- particularly men-- especially men-- who speak out "against women", even when it is simply defending themselves against the hateful onslaught of those women. And they have deeply internalized the message that Feminists send men that we are somehow "bad", "wrong", "evil", "vile", "rapey", "monsters" because we are men. And they have been acculturated to understand that fighting back, resisting, not going along with, and speaking up for themselves gets them beaten down even harder-- they lose their jobs, their friends, their prestige, sometimes their wives or girlfriends along with their families, sometimes they even lose their freedom and end up in jail-- such as at the business end of a false rape accusation, which may or may not end up going away-- but which will in any case devastate a man, follow him around, crush him like a tin can, demoralize him, and effectively castrate him for the rest of his life. All on some woman's whim.

You think I don't know about that?

Or that I don't care about that? That's what you seem to be implying.

What's worse-- you didn't say this so you might not know-- what's worse is that we EACH have to go it alone. We're not supposed to organize or come together to discuss any of this amongst ourselves or to try and formulate any strategy or defense or response to what it happening. We're supposed to INDIVIDUALLY stand there and take it like good little rape-monsters.

If we do try and come together, Feminist women come marching at us with their signs and bullhorns and despicable fire-alarm pulling tactics to silence our voices and keep us from speaking and sharing our lived-experiences and our collected information. They keep us from forming clubs and coalitions on college campuses. They sue our male-spaces into oblivion-- even as they freely create their own FEMALE-spaces with complete impunity and disregard for the supposed "breaches of equality" it caused when it was about Men. When we try to organize ourselves, we get written up in the newspapers and news sites and on the news-- slandered and maligned-- called rapists and evil people with mal intent, bent upon forcing women back into some sort of twisted servitude. Our forums and venues are picketed and sabotaged, and even shut-down by those hateful harridans and their malignant malodorous minions.

And worst of all, are our OWN MEN who stoop and bow at the feet of the Feminists, acting against their own interests and giving over their male power to the cause of hateful Feminism to be used against them, and everyone like them. For what? A pat on the head? A bit of soppy seconds? An extra ration of bread for being such a useful Kapo?

You think I don't know about all that? You think I don't care? You think I'm too "emotionally driven" that I don't know when people are actively working to subjugate me and everyone who looks like me? Pissing on my back and telling me it's raining? You think I don't know???


Women have been engaged in the battle against men for over 150 years now. And the Men, for the most part are either completely unaware of it-- or too paralyzed to act in their own defense. And can you really blame them? In order to respond, men have to FIRST posit the idea that their own WOMEN could be at WAR with them-- and secondly ACCEPT such a notion-- and THIRD-- broach the idea that they should do something about it and go AGAINST their own families-- their own WOMEN-- their own Wives / Girlfriends / Mothers / Daughters / Sisters and Colleagues. In order for Men to respond, they have to BREAK RANKS, go AGAINST their hundreds of thousands of years worth of evolved sense to protect and provide for WOMEN-- in order to go up against WOMEN. THEIR OWN WOMEN.

That's how insidious and hateful Feminism really is.

You think I don't know that?


But the real question is-- what can we do about it? What should we do about it? And more importantly, HOW do we do something about it? Especially when MOST MEN won't even admit it-- because they either haven't figured it out yet, don't want to believe it, or are too afraid (or concerned) to ACT AGAINST their women?

Women don't have this problem. They have been being SERVED by Men for all those same hundreds of thousands of years. It has been in their interest to lay down and go along and make the "Deal"-- but all along, THEY have imagined themselves as being the True Bosses and the Man simply being the servant and just not knowing it. So they've pinned ribbons on his chest, rallied the community to build him statues, and waved a teary goodbye as they pack him off for battle.

Because, you know, Women have always been the primary victims of war.

And that's what they really believe.

And they can always get another man. No big thing. It's only when it's her OWN SON that there's a bit of a twinge. But as long as he died for the glory of women-- she can get over it.

Women, on the other hand, when they are "acquired" in battle, have very few compunctions about switching sides and cozing up to their new "masters". Because they know the drill. Give up some pussy, give out a blowjob or two-- and suddenly he's singing a new tune, and on her leash working for her purposes.

And that's the way it works.

You think I don't know that?



But what do we *DO* about it? How do we FIRST educate men to even understand what is happening to them? And SECONDLY get them to accept that it is? To say nothing about getting them over the hump of having to go up against women. That's a biggie right there.

It's a whole lot easier for MEN to *DENOUNCE* the likes of US and the MRM and get brownie points from their Female-handlers.

You gotta start somewhere.

For me, it's in delivering a message. A very simple message with a very powerful accusation, designed to be delivered everywhere-- designed to wake people up and shake them out of their complacency and to get them *THINKING* about what they're going along with. That FEMINISM IS HATE. Most people have never considered it from that point of view. They've always heard it was about EQUALITY, and that WOMEN have it worse-- somehow.

In order to commit SABOTAGE, you have to toss some clogs into some gears someplace. And waking people up to the nature of Feminism-- to the HATRED of Feminism is an extremely powerful first shot. And the Feminists won't see it coming. They're so used to controlling the narrative, that they won't even realize or understand the danger that such a tiny phrase can do to them. It has the power to set them on edge. If only enough people wake up enough to start saying it and repeating it and posting it EVERYWHERE. And the beauty of it is that it can be expressed by a MAN or a WOMAN with equal effect. Feminism has no love for the "wrong sort of women" who don't march to their fascist beat.

Finally, for the few Feminists that DO get the message and understand what it means-- it lets them know that the fight is on and they need to invoke their battle plan. Because as soon as they do that, they are out in the open. No longer shielded from view in the darkness and shadows, but outed into the cold light of day, where everybody can see them for the hateful hags they really are. And people need to UNDERSTAND that it's HATE we're dealing with here. Not "MENTAL ILLNESS", not "MISUNDERSTANDINGS", not "FRINGE LUNATICS" or any of the things they keep throwing up in front of us. They will understand that WE MEN are FINALLY AWAKE and we are not going to FLINCH, we are not going to WAVER, we are not going to BACK DOWN until they are GONE.

Our aim is to turn NOW into THEN once and for all.


So, do you have any useful suggestions? Oh, and you might want to put on your helmet, it's going to get a little rough from here on out.


And I really am interested in understanding you. If you're here to teach, I'm here to learn.

But if you just want to walk beside us and be in our corner, that's okay too.

[TheNarrator]

- In essence, what you perceive as vanity, I perceive as an adherence to our natural traits as genders, which I hope never changes. I also believe that trying to look nice is a form of love between couples.

i believe in adherence of natural traits, however im not gonna be used by anyone. and women use men.

that said. that is not at ALL what plummer called vanity.. i highlighted some. and you just disregarded it.

do you usually just stick to your guns no matter what proof of your own dishonesty is shown?

[MatrixTransform]

swapping gender pronouns in famous feminists 'quotations' is hilariously funny.

so, why aren't feminists laughing?

"I want to see a man beaten to a bloody pulp with" ... etc
Wasn't that Dworkin?
who would still be on the reading lists for Gender Studies
Whose books are still stacked on a shrine in the middle of my local bookshop

kinda makes the comment that women are pigs by some MGTAO ( based on a theme by VoidSpawn) blogger sound kind of tame by comparison

Dee, do you have a point to make or are you just shitty cos people started rejecting the whole feminists perspective thing before you'd fully finished yr sentence...sorry, excuse me ... essay?

[MatrixTransform]

Oh, and you might want to put on your helmet, it's going to get a little rough from here on out.

this is sparta

[simpleman]

Looks like some of your comments are coming this way... so... here I go.

But you don't wanna hear that. You'd rather I go, "Oh my gosh, now I understand what you're getting at, and how come I didn't see that before?" The thing is, I know where you're coming from, so why don't you try to see my standpoint? You'd rather I march right next to you saying "they hate us" and all that bullshit. Well I'm sorry, I'm an objective person and believe that objectivity is the key to resolving issues. This is the main difference between you and me, and I'll show you how.

The hate is not BS, I do feel it from time to time... for instance I have read the Declaration of Sentiments several times, and still today it does affect me... I do try to disconnect and talk to myself that it is talking about men in the past, men I have nothing in common with... but no matter how I try to go around it, it hits me. And We are here talking about a document that is not even consider part of the hateful collection, like the work of Valerie Solanas.

In the core of feminism there is real hate for men, they hate us. They truly do. I can show you documents written 100 years ago, and I can show you documents written today, and both keep the same hate, strong hate...

I don't see any signs of it dying, as you say. If anything it looks like it is getting worse each time around.

When I read the Declaration of Sentiments I get in a state of sadness that last some few hours. I still have not fully recover from "I shot Andy Warhol", I watch it over a year ago.

So claiming that feminism is hateful is not BS, is a very real claim. Probably the most accurate thing it can be say about feminism... because it is as true today as it was in the past, it is as true here as it is in any other country in the world where there is a feminist movement.

That's how I reacted to such writings, whereas you're still hung up on re-reading them rather than change your discourse to attain your rights. Hate is part of life and who we are as people, but transforming hateful discourse into policy is another much more dangerous matter, which is what happened in your situation. Also, hate is a human attribute and dies off when the person dies. And believe it or not, that hate died off when these second-wave feminists died off, leaving you with nothing but a sorry ass, ****ed up legislation that dehumanizes you as husbands, fathers, and men.

The thing is that legislation or not, we are dehumanized... The legislation is a by-product of the hate... and no, hate is not part of who we are as people.. At least in my personal case hate is not part of who I am as a person.

Trying to change the legislation is a futile task, because the values that instate that legislation are pretty much alive and well... I know most of the people in this forums are activists, I am not, I think they don't care enough about us to give us any form of fairness...

Men are suffering, it is true, but any feminist will tell you that we are not suffering enough, they will not feel any sympathy for our case, if anything that is the confirmation that all their hard works is finally giving some fruit.

But none of that registers with you since you're still carrying all these resentful statements you read a long time ago that were expressed by mostly dead people at this point. And that's because you're emotionally-based and would be probably be more distressed if someone says, "I hate you, mr_e" rather than "You're so unfair, mr_e," whereas I would be more disturbed by the latter statement; I don't mind being hated and wouldn't be influenced by it and would still treat that person fairly. I would, however, be very distressed if someone calls me unfair .. that would really hurt cuz it's what my constitution is all about. You're driven by emotions, and people like you tend to be very forgiving as well. (Plummer if you say shit test one more time I swear to God).

You say you don't mind being hated... because you have never really being hated, you have not being hated since your early childhood all the way up until the day you day... So for you, in your mind, hate is not a big of a deal... maybe you think that hate is something other person feel and their feelings can't really affect you. And I would agree with you if this was the case, but unfortunately there is more to it, there is actions too, there is things they do out of hate. And this actions can affect us...

Now regardless of these insults, I was still able to pinpoint the reasons behind why men were so frustrated with some women and did think these points were valid. Yet, the discourse itself was indeed a hateful one, and I believe it's as dehumanizing as those sentiments you presented. Let's look at many MGTOWs point of view on "stringing a woman along without her knowledge," for example. I don't think there's anything wrong about not wanting to get married or attached, as long as you disclose such statement way ahead during the relationship; this is called having integrity.

I am MGTOW...

First of all, a MGTOW would not seek a relationship at all, that is the whole point of MGTOW... though I understand in the first stages of it some men do try to find the unicorn, and also some men are very angry, because waking up and realizing how hard they mess you up is not a nice feeling, everybody who wakes up to this reality will be very angry... Anyway, anger phases out, eventually, and so the unicorn dream.

Funny how you talk about "integrity" in this context... Let me flip that for you... if a woman go to a diner and fuck plan with a man, she should disclosure that her actual intention is to find a husband, it is more logical for her to say what she wants than for him to say all the things that he does not want... she should not let this run over time and then all of the sudden argue that he made her waste so much time she could have invest on the relationship she was "hoping for"... Sorry about the disappointments, but who is in fault here... Integrity wise?

If you have a girlfriend and you're MGTOW, the only decent and acceptable thing to do is to tell her that you're never getting married right from the start. And it's crucial that you disclose the reasons behind that because it'll help her understand what the hell you're going through as men within society, which in turn will yield immediate results on the behavior of many women, as well as yield positive results with respect to your own situation. This is called individual activism and a wonderful form of opposition as opposed to the crap some guys are pulling now. I find that MGTOW videos such as these only teach men to be manipulative, spineless cowards rather than have the integrity they should possess, especially since they're asking for fairness, equality, and respect. Go with integrity and it will guarantee you the best results.

If you have a girlfriend... you are not a MGTOW...

You want to learn about my "individual activism"... I avoid any place where a woman hunting for a husband might be... not an easy thing to do, I must confess, it takes a lot of try and error, and adjusting schedules, and the so, but eventually it is possible, most of the time to no even be in the position to having to evade the woman, because the whole situation was evaded as such... so there is not conversation, there is not understanding, there is not relationship, all there is, is me buying my groceries at 1:30 in the morning and women asking "Where the men go?"

Yes, I am spineless, yes I am a coward, no I don't have what you call "integrity", and to be honest, at this point I am not so naive to ask for fairness, equality and respect... at this moment all I want is to be let alone.

I am tired of being treated like a thing while women expect me to treat them like queens... I don't want to deal with any of that anymore...

I am on the point where It is just much simple for me to masturbate, take a shower and then sleep... I don't say it this way so I say I am "MGTOW", which in my case it just means those 3 things... But if you want me to be straight honest, for integrity sake, then in reality I am a MSS (stands for Mastubate, Shower, Sleep)... now, if I add a Play Station to the MSS deal.. then I am in heaven... what else do I need in life?

I can make a very compelling argument that my "MGTOW" lifestyle is much better and superior than the standard family deal men are getting.

And although these videos aren't considered legislation, they do affect thousands of followers who keep hearing that women are animals and should be treated like trash, which is bad for everybody really. It also exasperates your current situation and problems rather than solve them. I was able to understand the reasons behind these resentful sentiments and the frustration that many men feel today due to being marginalized, but the situation needs be dealt with correctly. There's a huge difference between helping create a documentary that explains your situation, which is a responsible and effective way to go about things, and between spouting off about how women are cunts & bitches who deserve abuse.

No so bad... animals have rights, and people treat them kindly... sometimes I wish I was an animal...

- Let me explain this whole mess about Awalt by giving you this example:

- What do automatically do when you're speaking to someone and ask him questions, and the person right next to him keeps answering for him? You immediately ask for that person to speak for himself, right?

- It's called the right to self-representation, which we're all entitled to as human beings. If I were to learn about men, I wouldn't ask a woman to describe them for me .. I'd ask men to represent themselves. So why on earth would you let men define who we are as women and speak on our behalf? Why not allow us self-representation, listen to us, and then make up your own mind?

I have plenty of experience with women... and I observe other men and their experience with women...

I am good at observing... for example some lines after you make this argument you give us this line:
"the law would grant me the right to drag that man to jail without awarding him the chance to speak or actually learning about what happened."

So.. how can you make a point that you are not like that, when you are full aware of the power you have over that man, when you know you can destroy his live in a phone call... How can you even conceive that you can have a balanced relationship with that man? You can't possibly believe that both of you are equal parts on the relationship...

And even worse... the man does know this too... Try to imagine how it is to be that man, living with that knowledge every day of his life, and hoping that it never comes the day that you are so upset, or bored, to do the phone call...

Now come back and tell me again that you are not like that...

- And sadly, I think that the perception and relationship between many men and women is one that is currently built on suspicion and doubt, which leaves no room for hope or genuine happiness. I really hope I meet someone who hasn't been polluted by feminist or anti-feminist claims that men/women are bad so that we can build a healthy relationship together .. like a rancher up in Utah who's never heard of wifi.

Still you can make that phone call anytime you like to... you just want a man stupid enough to no be aware of this, so he believe you are equals... that is it?

Is this your version of "I want a virgin"? A man that is so isolated he have never being used and abused?

Your idea of "healthy" is very sick.

[Manalysis]

I originally started off this post as a reply to Mr_e & Plummer, but it's turned into a thread that I now want to share with others.

Well, the title is very promising; but I'm still waiting for those promised perspectives. So far, I only see a lot of 'splainin' going on.

And I realized what the main problem was almost immediately upon reading about second wave feminism, which as I explained earlier laid the foundation of what I now call "the legislated abuse of men."

You do realize that you are a latecomer to this game? For most of the people here, second wave and other feminism is not something read about in a book, it is that fabled "lived experience" that at present must be seen to underlie all discourse, and this very site owes its existence to men with these experiences.

From then on, I started writing, to you and to other members, about how destructive the laws were regarding: marital property laws, reproductive rights, domestic abuse, and child custody and support to say the least. I explained in previous entries how dysfunctional these laws were ....

Not afraid of storming an open door head-on, then

The first thing that came to mind after watching it was .. this ain't no red pill, this is the reality

Ever wondered what the red pill metaphor actually means?

I /was/ rising ... above the entire situation .... it's an indescribable feeling of positivity, power, and invincibility; it's what leaders are made out of. When you rise above the situation, you feel like a supreme being you feel like God.
.... I'm an objective person and believe that objectivity is the key to resolving issues. This is the main difference between you and me .....
.... You're driven by emotions ...

Everyone is driven by emotions; emotions are the faculty we have to transform knowledge into action, to get things moving, to be motivated, to have motives. E-mot-ion. Ex + movere. "Out of motion, agitation, strong feeling".
Nobody is driven by rationality, not even, and perhaps especially not, people who think they are.
I suggest you take the little florilegium above, and a mirror, and go do some work.

If you have a girlfriend and you're MGTOW, the only decent and acceptable thing to do is to tell her that you're never getting married right from the start. And it's crucial that you disclose the reasons behind that because it'll help her

You know, we'd be completely lost wrt. how we could utilize our energies to decently and acceptably "help her", if it weren't for your sage council and guidance.

So why on earth would you let men define who we are as women and speak on our behalf?

Nobody here does that. People report how women and feminists look from their standpoint.

Why not allow us self-representation, listen to us, and then make up your own mind?

What do you think we are doing?
And have done for the last 150 years ...?
Welcome to the made-up mind.

I do appreciate you coming in here, mainstream, thinking you got game

Most here will applaud your coming here to run; although at the moment, it looks like it might come down to a photo finish. Interesting to follow.

M

[mr_e]

Looks like some of your comments are coming this way... so... here I go.



The hate is not BS, I do feel it from time to time... for instance I have read the Declaration of Sentiments several times, and still today it does affect me... I do try to disconnect and talk to myself that it is talking about men in the past, men I have nothing in common with... but no matter how I try to go around it, it hits me. And We are here talking about a document that is not even consider part of the hateful collection, like the work of Valerie Solanas.

In the core of feminism there is real hate for men, they hate us. They truly do. I can show you documents written 100 years ago, and I can show you documents written today, and both keep the same hate, strong hate...

I don't see any signs of it dying, as you say. If anything it looks like it is getting worse each time around.

When I read the Declaration of Sentiments I get in a state of sadness that last some few hours. I still have not fully recover from "I shot Andy Warhol", I watch it over a year ago.

So claiming that feminism is hateful is not BS, is a very real claim. Probably the most accurate thing it can be say about feminism... because it is as true today as it was in the past, it is as true here as it is in any other country in the world where there is a feminist movement.



The thing is that legislation or not, we are dehumanized... The legislation is a by-product of the hate... and no, hate is not part of who we are as people.. At least in my personal case hate is not part of who I am as a person.

Trying to change the legislation is a futile task, because the values that instate that legislation are pretty much alive and well... I know most of the people in this forums are activists, I am not, I think they don't care enough about us to give us any form of fairness...

Men are suffering, it is true, but any feminist will tell you that we are not suffering enough, they will not feel any sympathy for our case, if anything that is the confirmation that all their hard works is finally giving some fruit.



You say you don't mind being hated... because you have never really being hated, you have not being hated since your early childhood all the way up until the day you day... So for you, in your mind, hate is not a big of a deal... maybe you think that hate is something other person feel and their feelings can't really affect you. And I would agree with you if this was the case, but unfortunately there is more to it, there is actions too, there is things they do out of hate. And this actions can affect us...



I am MGTOW...

First of all, a MGTOW would not seek a relationship at all, that is the whole point of MGTOW... though I understand in the first stages of it some men do try to find the unicorn, and also some men are very angry, because waking up and realizing how hard they mess you up is not a nice feeling, everybody who wakes up to this reality will be very angry... Anyway, anger phases out, eventually, and so the unicorn dream.

Funny how you talk about "integrity" in this context... Let me flip that for you... if a woman go to a diner and fuck plan with a man, she should disclosure that her actual intention is to find a husband, it is more logical for her to say what she wants than for him to say all the things that he does not want... she should not let this run over time and then all of the sudden argue that he made her waste so much time she could have invest on the relationship she was "hoping for"... Sorry about the disappointments, but who is in fault here... Integrity wise?



If you have a girlfriend... you are not a MGTOW...

You want to learn about my "individual activism"... I avoid any place where a woman hunting for a husband might be... not an easy thing to do, I must confess, it takes a lot of try and error, and adjusting schedules, and the so, but eventually it is possible, most of the time to no even be in the position to having to evade the woman, because the whole situation was evaded as such... so there is not conversation, there is not understanding, there is not relationship, all there is, is me buying my groceries at 1:30 in the morning and women asking "Where the men go?"

Yes, I am spineless, yes I am a coward, no I don't have what you call "integrity", and to be honest, at this point I am not so naive to ask for fairness, equality and respect... at this moment all I want is to be let alone.

I am tired of being treated like a thing while women expect me to treat them like queens... I don't want to deal with any of that anymore...

I am on the point where It is just much simple for me to masturbate, take a shower and then sleep... I don't say it this way so I say I am "MGTOW", which in my case it just means those 3 things... But if you want me to be straight honest, for integrity sake, then in reality I am a MSS (stands for Mastubate, Shower, Sleep)... now, if I add a Play Station to the MSS deal.. then I am in heaven... what else do I need in life?

I can make a very compelling argument that my "MGTOW" lifestyle is much better and superior than the standard family deal men are getting.



No so bad... animals have rights, and people treat them kindly... sometimes I wish I was an animal...



I have plenty of experience with women... and I observe other men and their experience with women...

I am good at observing... for example some lines after you make this argument you give us this line:
"the law would grant me the right to drag that man to jail without awarding him the chance to speak or actually learning about what happened."

So.. how can you make a point that you are not like that, when you are full aware of the power you have over that man, when you know you can destroy his live in a phone call... How can you even conceive that you can have a balanced relationship with that man? You can't possibly believe that both of you are equal parts on the relationship...

And even worse... the man does know this too... Try to imagine how it is to be that man, living with that knowledge every day of his life, and hoping that it never comes the day that you are so upset, or bored, to do the phone call...

Now come back and tell me again that you are not like that...



Still you can make that phone call anytime you like to... you just want a man stupid enough to no be aware of this, so he believe you are equals... that is it?

Is this your version of "I want a virgin"? A man that is so isolated he have never being used and abused?

Your idea of "healthy" is very sick.

Simpleman, your post affected me deeply. Thank you for writing it. And this is the sadness that I too feel. I am determined to be the LAST man to feel it, and to work to ensure that my boys never will.

[mr_e]

Well, the title is very promising; but I'm still waiting for those promised perspectives. So far, I only see a lot of 'splainin' going on.


You do realize that you are a latecomer to this game? For most of the people here, second wave and other feminism is not something read about in a book, it is that fabled "lived experience" that at present must be seen to underlie all discourse, and this very site owes its existence to men with these experiences.


Not afraid of storming an open door head-on, then


Ever wondered what the red pill metaphor actually means?



Everyone is driven by emotions; emotions are the faculty we have to transform knowledge into action, to get things moving, to be motivated, to have motives. E-mot-ion. Ex + movere. "Out of motion, agitation, strong feeling".
Nobody is driven by rationality, not even, and perhaps especially not, people who think they are.
I suggest you take the little florilegium above, and a mirror, and go do some work.



You know, we'd be completely lost wrt. how we could utilize our energies to decently and acceptably "help her", if it weren't for your sage council and guidance.


Nobody here does that. People report how women and feminists look from their standpoint.


What do you think we are doing?
And have done for the last 150 years ...?
Welcome to the made-up mind.



Most here will applaud your coming here to run; although at the moment, it looks like it might come down to a photo finish. Interesting to follow.

M

Thank you M for a good positive rebuttal.

I am still holding out hope that Dee has something on her mind to share with us, and that we're simply in the "laying down groundwork" phase.

Speaking for myself, I do not wish to dismiss her out of hand, if only because she is walking in and expecting us to all be neck-bearded bumpkins.

(I don't even have a beard, Dee.)

So far-- and maybe this is just me-- I haven't heard any actual animosity coming from her, even as she is being a bit "Matronizing". But I'm okay with that. I've never shied away from anybody with a strong opinion in my life, as long as they've got the brains and moxie to back it up.

But I'm still waiting for her to get to the point-- if she has one---> and that's not a taunt, Dee. I'm simply waiting to see where you're headed and where the conversation is going from here. It's really your dime, and you have our attention.

I'm also wanting to make it perfectly clear-- at least for myself-- that I have only a neutral opinion thus far of what's been said. As far as I can tell, we are still just laying out the lines of demarcation and the true conversation has yet to begin. At least, I'm hoping so. So far it's been a lot of fluff and posturing. On my part as well.

You're welcome to be our friend, Dee. There doesn't have to be anything else. But you keep tossing stuff up like you are wanting to take "us" (this conversation) somewhere... so we're all standing around waiting for you. It's your show.

Please don't keep us in suspense for too long, okay?

[theplummer]

My first reaction to this wall of text is to apply the old adage: "If you can't beat your opponent with facts, baffle them with bullshit."

I'm seeing a tremendous amount of useless 'word salad' within the context of these words. With a tremendous amount of platitudes, virtue signaling, backhanded insults dressed in concern, and dripping with an air of superiority (Like an all knowing college professor treats a student who is coming from a perspective that the professor had never thought of.

My inclination is to NOT give this any credence whatsoever, as the tone is not of having a equal conversation, but rather you want us to listen to you, see your point of view, and attempt to shame us into capitulating.... However, all the words below, I have not seen much of a solid position, just a lot of political and academic double speak, with nearly no rationality, but rather lots of emotion, and that emotion is protested against (Again, me thinks thou dost protest too much).

I have mulled over whether or not to even bother to respond, as this is a rather insulting post, directed specifically at both Mr. E and myself, of which I do not TAKE shame well at all... I just don't do it... ANYMORE!!!

I have, however, decided to respond to this in a limited fashion, as there are a few points that I do want to respond to, then present a short video rebuttal that has direct reference to the cultural climate that I feel you'd like for us in the manosphere to just willingly give up our stronghold, again like a police negociator, and allow us to be taken back into custody, with a peaceful surrender... One thing about that position, YOU and every other hostage negotiator trying to accomplish this, simply have NO POWER... You cannot surround us, cut off our food, water, electricity, etc. You have no guns to prevent us from rushing your attempt at a siege attack... We will simply ignore you, at some point (and I fear this is going to be in the VERY near future), and you will just go away.

I will remind you of words you wrote in your introduction thread, that I had commented that were the most intelligent thing you had written to date. That was a response to Deidre, in that maybe you should shut up and listen more, and speak less.... Something that it appears you do not have the capacity to do at this point.

If you cannot see how insulting your words are, that is a failing on your personhood, and I will summarily dismiss you. I ask for no apology, however, If you can't change your tune, you will be shown the proverbial door as far as I'm concerned. IOW, Just STOP it. Shut up for a bit and listen. Ask many more questions, as well as I second Mr. E's recent request for you to get on with making your point. I'm getting tired of standing around waiting for you to actually make one.

I originally started off this post as a reply to Mr_e & Plummer, but it's turned into a thread that I now want to share with others.



mr_e

.

.

.

(had to delete much here, as post exceeded max characters)




[QUOTE]
Officer Plummer [QUOTE]Not and officer, haven't been for 14 years now. I can see now how I was expected to be one of the fellow 'Enforcers' of all things that women find that men do as unpalatable. NO MORE for me. I do have a unique perspective to add to the discussion, for I've come out of the belly of that beast, and I warn men often about what can and will happen to them, for opposing women and the proxy violence that they call upon the state to perform on the individual 'female sensibility offender'...

- First of all .. you're so mainstream it's almost adorable. And an ex-cop too? This is gonna be kinda like batman vs superman. Btw I'm both characters, you just sit there and read your comic :-)

Mainstream?... I've been called a lot of things, but NEVER mainstream...

- Let me start off by saying .. what on planet earth have you been listening to? Awalt, Amalt, shit-tests? When'd you ditch your own common sense and why?

And so the insults begin... dismissing me as not having any common sense? Politely I say, FUCK YOU!

Just because I use common language to quickly describe a concept, rather than have to explain every concept every time I want to present it, is NOT indicative that I do not have common sense... In fact, I am quickly coming to see that a fox is smelling it's own hole. IOW... Projection much?

- Let me explain this whole mess about Awalt by giving you this example:

- What do automatically do when you're speaking to someone and ask him questions, and the person right next to him keeps answering for him? You immediately ask for that person to speak for himself, right?

- It's called the right to self-representation, which we're all entitled to as human beings. If I were to learn about men, I wouldn't ask a woman to describe them for me .. I'd ask men to represent themselves. So why on earth would you let men define who we are as women and speak on our behalf? Why not allow us self-representation, listen to us, and then make up your own mind?

Define yourself anyway you wish. Be careful of cognitive dissonance though... For words are cheap, action is everything...

And this is important (I'll be addressing this again later). I don't listen to anyone's words... UNLESS... The words they utter are in congruence with their ACTIONS...

If you (you individually, you as a group of awake women, you as a 'let's all come back together' feminist) were actually concerned about the wrongs you see, You'd actually be DOING SOMETHING ABOUT IT... But so far, where's the petitions to the legislations to have things like default 50/50 shared parenting plans in divorce... So far, all you are feeding me is a donut, sprinkled with powdered sugar... Where's the BEEF?

- I define myself, Plummer, not you, not my parents, and definitely not some youtuber saying all kindsa stuff that don't describe me in the least bit. I say what I mean and always assume that people are telling the truth and hope I never change. It's ok to be careful and aware, I guess, but assuming the worst about people's intentions towards you (let alone a partner) is a major flaw and not a good way to live. I think that losing faith in others only mirrors loss of faith in ourselves, our own ability to give, to trust and to love.

You don't have faith in God, but you do have faith in flawed human beings? (shakes head in disbelief). And you apparently do believe in God, as you swore to him earlier when you started this diatribe... See what I mean about cognitive dissonance? You aren't even consistent in your words, much less having your words match your actions.

- As for "vanity", I don't quite see it the way you do. I believe most men and women have intrinsic traits within them. Are you familiar with the saying, "Men are attracted to what they see, while women are attracted to what they hear." I was sitting at a coffee shop one time and an older lady asked to sit at my table after we exchanged a couple of words. I now understand that she might have been a feminist because she kept attributing male traits to women, to which I disagreed. She said that women were attracted by the male form just like men were attracted to ours, and that it wasn't fair for women to have such "restrictions" on their attire while men can roam around half naked without anybody batting an eye. And the funniest thing is, when I explained my thoughts on how fair this was because of men and women's different natures, she walked away after telling me that it's "Jesus-loving women like you that's ruining it for us." I didn't understand then but was just thankful she had left. Kept looking over my shoulder to see if she'd come back too.

I don't understand the example that you described as to having anything at all to do with female vanity... Nope... Female vanity... Just take a day and see how many times you look into a mirror, or look at your reflection somewhere.. You'll surprise yourself about how many times you do... And that is nothing more than being insecure about the way you are presenting yourself... I watch women all the time... I just laugh at how many women who can't help themselves but check their face when passing a mirror... It's so absurdly common, it's utterly ridiculous.

- Women look nice for you guys, just like men look or stare at women because it's their nature. And the way men are currently ostracized just for staring at women speaks volumes about how anti-male society has become. Of course, looking nice does not mean abusing guys by being nasty. When a guy makes the effort to let you know you're cute and takes the risk of asking you out, you're automatically indebted to him, and the least a girl can do is say thank you and be pleasant about it. Being nasty to a guy asking you out is like being handed a flower only to toss it on the floor and stomp on it.

You are the first woman that I've ever heard say that... Every other woman I've ever met says that they "do it for THEMSELVES"... When in reality, they do it, to compete with OTHER WOMEN....

- I still remember when dad unexpectedly came back early from work one day, while mom was surrounded by me and two of my brothers working on homework. She was wearing her glasses, which dad apparently spotted. So he motioned for us to keep quiet, snuck up behind mom and went, "Gotcha!" She immediately took her glasses off and both of them started laughing so hard, and then he hugged her. My mom's very pretty, yet on that day I realized that he'd never seen her wearing her glasses. I thought it was very cute how mom always wants look nice for him.

You cannot use examples of people who were raised to a different time, such as your parents... The world is a very different place now than it was when they met and got married... To them, once they got married, they got 'stuck in time'... and that's a good thing, for if one would have continued to 'progress', the marriage would not have lasted... BTW, anecdotal instances do not negate the general trend...

- In essence, what you perceive as vanity, I perceive as an adherence to our natural traits as genders, which I hope never changes. I also believe that trying to look nice is a form of love between couples.

Agreed... Women are vain, when compared to men... Women are emotional, when compared to men, women are solipsistic, when compared to men... Women are Cluster B, when compared to men... Women are perpetual 'emerging adults', when compared to men... Women have NO IDEA what being EQUAL (in every way) to a man, for women have nearly zero desire to be ACCOUNTABLE for themselves.

Again, it's a sliding scale, but the trend holds very true.

- Also, there's a big difference between looking nice and between having a flawed perception of things that are to be considered valuable, and the latter is something that the media is trying hard to spread. I think that designer items, for example, should be boycotted and that designer industry should be torn down. I believe that spending 300 dollars on some shoes simply because they carry the name of some dipshit, freak of a designer is a sin, especially given the fact that many people all over the world are dying off due to homelessness, disease-related illnesses, and hunger.

So, you have a bit of pragmatism within you... and are a bit frugal.. Good for you... BUT... How many times do you shop for cheap 'knockoffs' because that's the 'style' of the times... and a simple utilitarian clothing like men wear, is likely not anything you'd be caught dead in... Unless you could somehow pull off making the look "CUTE"...

- And sadly, I think that the perception and relationship between many men and women is one that is currently built on suspicion and doubt, which leaves no room for hope or genuine happiness. I really hope I meet someone who hasn't been polluted by feminist or anti-feminist claims that men/women are bad so that we can build a healthy relationship together .. like a rancher up in Utah who's never heard of wifi.

SOOOO, You want a clueless blue piller that you can run roughshod over and control? Hahahahaha... No you don't... You think you do, but you don't... a man like you describe... would dry your panties up in a flash... Nope, what you and all (relatively sane) women want is a man to put you in your place... that's why so many women fall for the 'bad boys'... because the 'good men' have been taught to capitulate to the womenz desires, and that's not attractive to women... So women are left with a 'thirst' for 'real men'..masculine men, with a genuine desire to love and care for a woman, yet keep her in line.... What women really want is " A good, bad man"...

- So I don't know what governs you, Plummer, but I'm planning on getting married and having four kids come hell or high water. And when I do get engaged, I'm gonna insist on choosing my own wedding ring to pick out the least expensive one out of consideration for his efforts in saving some money to get me something fancy. And when I do stay at home and receive my "allowance," I'm gonna spend it as scarcely as how hard he worked to earn it. This is not some cosmic wisdom or anything, merely an accurate awareness on what things really mean in life as opposed how they're inaccurately presented by others.

This is what you want.... RIGHT NOW.... That's what I put after EVERYTHING a woman says... "RIGHT NOW".... For their is ONE right that women have that they will NEVER give up... The right (or prerogative) to CHANGE HER MIND...

That's what governs me, in a nutshell... To warn men to this fact about women... There are no 'unicorns' out there.... All women are hypergamous, and just because one doesn't act on it today or tomorrow, doesn't mean that she won't at anytime in the future...

Until the culture and law recognize and give men the ability to control hypergamy... the answer is "NO MA'AM!!!"

- Let's look at "domestic shelters", for example. The first thing they convey to women is that if you're in a relationship with a man, he will abuse you. I've always thought that having such shelters was wrong because it's pro-woman, one sided, and unfair. Let's suppose that my husband physically abused me, which is something that would never happen in reality cuz I wouldn't put myself in that position to begin with. But if it were to happen, the law would grant me the right to drag that man to jail without awarding him the chance to speak or actually learning about what happened. These domestic shelters don't give a damn if I were a loud mouth who constantly abused my partner emotionally to the point where he could only react how men instinctively react upon being severely threatened or cornered into confrontation .. hitting. That is both unfair and abusive.

Here we can agree completely... Now, how about 'no fault divorce'... Let's work to get rid of that... back to 'fault divorce'... if a man (or woman) abuses their spouse, and can be charged with a crime... well that would be grounds for a divorce... That would control hypergamy...

- The thing is, there are legitimate concerns over the rights of men, and the best way to go about them is through raising our own self-awareness rather than spiral downward into more deluded misconceptions about one another.

- I have one life to live. This is my heaven and this is my hell. And I will steer my destiny according to my own morals, standards, and judgment rather than based on other people's convictions and thoughts. You should too.

- Try fitting that into one of your little categories, Officer.

- But I do appreciate you coming in here, mainstream, thinking you got game :-)

Raising self awareness? BULLSHIT!!! Again, What are women DOING about the concerns? I'll tell you... absolutely NOTHING... for words are as cheap as the sand in the desert...

As far as you fitting into a 'catagory'... Simple, You have not done anything but prove to me that you are exactly what a woman is... A 'emerging adult'....


Now, I decided to respond to you (rather than ignore you summarily) because I watched this video this morning.

I have a great deal of respect for Jordan Peterson, and like most all of his work... But, I think the rebuttal video is 'spot on' to the actual lived experiences of the gender known as MAN... Even if one doesn't recognize his own servitude. Which is what I suspect Peterson is suffering from a bit of, as most tradcons do.

[MatrixTransform]

Is this your version of "I want a virgin"? A man that is so isolated he have never being used and abused?

Sometimes, you simple bastard, you truly amaze me.

:-)

[theplummer]

Let's see if there will be any outcry from the wyminz about PAS... 80% of all divorces with children display acts of PAS. Where are the words of support, much less the ACTION?

[theplummer]

Every man should watch this video about the Duluth Model of Abuse. This IS the standard model that all 50 US states have modeled their Domestic Violence laws after.

The 'big lie' is that women (feminists) constantly drone on and on about how 'oppressed' they are, meanwhile, they have this shitty deal in their back pocket to pull out at any time, for any reason.

Even if a woman does not align herself with the feminist narrative, she enjoys the privileges bestowed upon her, by the state...In law, in police matters, and in family courts... Not to mention the court of public opinion.

Feminists demand equality... Again, I say they don't know what equality even looks like, for they've never been put in the place to live the lived experiences that men have to live with, just by being a citizen of the united states.

Again I ask, where are the women speaking out and doing something against this injustice? I've got extensive experience with this particular shit show, as this is what I was indoctrinated to believe as a trained law enforcement officer... This is a very large part of the DV training police receive.

Now tell me, are women oppressed in any way?

This gentleman expresses very well MEN's LIVED EXPERIENCES when dealing with women... and even women that he is NOT in a sexual relationship.

Enjoy:

[theplummer]

If after watching this in depth talk on IPV, one cannot conclude that feminists are lying, dishonest, intellectually ignorant, hateful movement, at WAR with men, I don't think there is any getting through to the ideologue driven.

If after viewing this, in conjunction with the rebuttal video above on the Duluth model, one cannot conclude that MGTOW is the ONLY viable method that men can use to self preservation, and prevention of himself becoming hamburger in the meat grinder of the state.

The only conclusion one could come to is that the whole feminist narrative is bullshit... When are the women going to stand up and correct this injustice?

Women broke the gender relations issues, so it's up to women to fix it... And so far, just the sound of crickets coming from women writ large...

It takes about 45 minutes to set up the findings, but the data 'bottom line' is revealed right about the 45 minute mark.

Also, pay particular attention to the last half of the video, as it reveals MOTHER violence perpetrated against their own CHILDREN.