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  • ''Women have choices, men have responsibilities''

    I was reading an interesting article this morning, and it had to do with ''choice feminism.'' Have you heard of this? It basically is a catch-phrase that means a woman can choose traditional roles, ie: stay at home mom, etc whilst still identifying as a feminist. It seems that feminism really doesn't stand for equality between the genders, but instead seems to morph in a few different directions, now basically offering women a chance to do whatever we wish, as long as whatever we wish doesn't have anything to do with a man dictating those wishes. The danger of ''choice feminism'' is that it doesn't allow men any flexibility in relationships (in my opinion), but rather it gives the women all the ''power'' and control. She decides what role she will play, regardless if this is in the best interest of her husband, children, and/or marriage. In the article, is a poignant quote ''women have choices, men have responsibilities.'' While that quote doesn't signify that women don't handle their responsibilities, because we often do, it means that women however, are afforded the option to choose what we'll be responsible for, whereas men don't have as many choices. I agree with that. Society does afford us this ''right'' and calls it good.

    The pro-choice movement for example, is all about a woman's right to choose, and a man being held responsible to pay child support, if she chooses life. If he wants her to choose life, she still has the choice before her, to choose abortion. Once again, this leaves the guy out in the cold - the woman solely having the choice. There are a myriad of other examples.

    Choice feminists could be the most dangerous of the feminist sub-groups, as their agendas are insidious, but pervasive. They aren't likely to be seen at Trump protests, or speaking out loudly about rape culture. But, these feminists are the types that believe that they should be able to decide for themselves what works best for them, despite any input from their partners, should they be in a relationship. The woman's significant other either accepts it or doesn't, but if he wants to appear supportive of feminism, he probably will follow suit. They are dangerous in that they are the silent majority, yet in their silence, they wield a lot of power to wreak havoc in their relationships, jobs, kids' lives, etc.

    What are your thoughts on choice feminism?

  • #2
    Originally posted by Deidre View Post
    I was reading an interesting article this morning, and it had to do with ''choice feminism.'' Have you heard of this? It basically is a catch-phrase that means a woman can choose traditional roles, ie: stay at home mom, etc whilst still identifying as a feminist. It seems that feminism really doesn't stand for equality between the genders, but instead seems to morph in a few different directions, now basically offering women a chance to do whatever we wish, as long as whatever we wish doesn't have anything to do with a man dictating those wishes. The danger of ''choice feminism'' is that it doesn't allow men any flexibility in relationships (in my opinion), but rather it gives the women all the ''power'' and control. She decides what role she will play, regardless if this is in the best interest of her husband, children, and/or marriage. In the article, is a poignant quote ''women have choices, men have responsibilities.'' While that quote doesn't signify that women don't handle their responsibilities, because we often do, it means that women however, are afforded the option to choose what we'll be responsible for, whereas men don't have as many choices. I agree with that. Society does afford us this ''right'' and calls it good.

    The pro-choice movement for example, is all about a woman's right to choose, and a man being held responsible to pay child support, if she chooses life. If he wants her to choose life, she still has the choice before her, to choose abortion. Once again, this leaves the guy out in the cold - the woman solely having the choice. There are a myriad of other examples.

    Choice feminists could be the most dangerous of the feminist sub-groups, as their agendas are insidious, but pervasive. They aren't likely to be seen at Trump protests, or speaking out loudly about rape culture. But, these feminists are the types that believe that they should be able to decide for themselves what works best for them, despite any input from their partners, should they be in a relationship. The woman's significant other either accepts it or doesn't, but if he wants to appear supportive of feminism, he probably will follow suit. They are dangerous in that they are the silent majority, yet in their silence, they wield a lot of power to wreak havoc in their relationships, jobs, kids' lives, etc.

    What are your thoughts on choice feminism?
    Nothing wrong with choice, as long as it comes BEFORE you are in a relationship with someone, if you are already in a relationship then presumably you already have a "deal" on how things are supposed to work, and it should not be changed without both party consent, naturally that is not how it happens.
    I sexually identify as a sword pommel, check your privilege or i will have to end you RIGHTLY.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Anonymous View Post
      Nothing wrong with choice, as long as it comes BEFORE you are in a relationship with someone, if you are already in a relationship then presumably you already have a "deal" on how things are supposed to work, and it should not be changed without both party consent, naturally that is not how it happens.
      Couldn't have said it better. Totally agree. I've never heard the phrase ''choice feminism,'' and it makes you wonder why are some women so hard pressed to hang onto the feminist label? Once again though, it shows how feminism isn't achieving equality for both genders.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Deidre View Post
        What are your thoughts on choice feminism?
        Same problem as always.
        Thieves.
        Theyre taking choice but leaving accountability.
        "Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one" - Charles Mackay

        And therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; It tolls for thee. - Donne

        "What we are seeing in this headless misandry is a grand display of the Tyranny of the Underdog: 'I am a wretchedly longstanding victim; therefore I own no burden of adult accountability, nor need to honor any restraint against my words and actions. In fact, all efforts to restrain me are only further proof of my oppressed condition.'
        "It is the most perfect trump-card against accountable living ever devised." - Gladden Schrock

        "What remains for most men in modern life is a world of expectation without reward, burden without honor and service without self" - Paul Elam

        Comment


        • #5
          All feminism is about feminism. It will morph, warp, pervert, contradict... do anything at all to make sure it's about feminism. Think the key aspect is "can still call themselves feminist" that's a deception it should be "as long as they call themselves feminist" and keep demanding advantages. I remember one feminist going on at me about transgender women how they are stealing the advantages they've won for themselves (as in feminist women). She the realised she said 'advantages' got embarrassed and checked out of the conversation quickly.

          It's a blatantly dishonest movement, that can only continue to steal the voice of women as long as women identify as feminist, and then that label can be readily adopted by politicians, judges, prosecutors, senior officials CEO's etc. The intent is to subvert elected and meritocratic positions, where a person should stand on who they are and how capable they are at doing the job, instead they want loyalty to a label.

          Feminism isn't just cultural marxism, it's a perverse hybrid of the worst of cultural marxism and brand consumerism. It's morphing, repackaging point to one important sub-surface aspect: the internal debate in feminism doesn't care, doesn't have any core values or anything to stand for, it's about the external show about drawing in recruits to wear the label what they are, how they behave, how much they contradict, what injustices they support doesn't matter. Sooner or later one of them will invent a new theory and sophist description to slop over the cracks, and conformity to the cause will dominate. There are only two kinds of feminist those with no moral compass driven by their greed for money and power who will invent and preach any ideological behaviour in order to control, and those that foolishly believe they are following that lead for the betterment of women.
          "...especially when it comes to communication, it can be observed, if it is not a negotiation it's a war."
          Originally posted by menrppl2
          Can't live with em, life is great without them.

          Comment


          • #6
            gawd Void, you make it sound bleak :-)
            "Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one" - Charles Mackay

            And therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; It tolls for thee. - Donne

            "What we are seeing in this headless misandry is a grand display of the Tyranny of the Underdog: 'I am a wretchedly longstanding victim; therefore I own no burden of adult accountability, nor need to honor any restraint against my words and actions. In fact, all efforts to restrain me are only further proof of my oppressed condition.'
            "It is the most perfect trump-card against accountable living ever devised." - Gladden Schrock

            "What remains for most men in modern life is a world of expectation without reward, burden without honor and service without self" - Paul Elam

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by MatrixTransform View Post
              gawd Void, you make it sound bleak :-)
              Haha, sorry MT... yeah I do kinda. For balance sake I do read moderate feminist identifying women. Like those here: Independent Women's Forum these are mainstream right wing types, who are trying to hold or establish a conservative feminism and make claim to feminists historical roots too, as a women's rights and suffrage movement.

              I wish them luck with their attempts, and they make a fair few good points. I think if these get stronger within feminism it's a good thing, because they will be inimical to marxist feminism, and that could be a split that marks open civil war in feminism. However I would prefer that women simply claim back their voice in their own individual right as equal citizens, feminist identifying of any ilk will be swept up into grand counts by feminist propagandists to be presented to weak politicians as the key to electoral success.
              "...especially when it comes to communication, it can be observed, if it is not a negotiation it's a war."
              Originally posted by menrppl2
              Can't live with em, life is great without them.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by voidspawn View Post
                I think if these get stronger within feminism it's a good thing, because they will be inimical to marxist feminism, and that could be a split that marks open civil war in feminism.
                I wonder about our politics and how they might be formed by geography as much as anything else

                and about our expectations and how they might be framed by circumstance... more than moral certainty.

                the missus was just talking about time (and some art-ism bullshit). She quoted somebody from a book.

                something about time and certainty ... about the provenance of ideas ... about 'possible' futures and 'probable' pasts...and how we magically appear in the narrative rather than being written in from the 'beginning'

                I dunno, I like bleak.

                Feminism's done its dash I reckon.

                Maybe soon its going to sound more like actual people actually talking rather than the meme it has become.
                "Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one" - Charles Mackay

                And therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; It tolls for thee. - Donne

                "What we are seeing in this headless misandry is a grand display of the Tyranny of the Underdog: 'I am a wretchedly longstanding victim; therefore I own no burden of adult accountability, nor need to honor any restraint against my words and actions. In fact, all efforts to restrain me are only further proof of my oppressed condition.'
                "It is the most perfect trump-card against accountable living ever devised." - Gladden Schrock

                "What remains for most men in modern life is a world of expectation without reward, burden without honor and service without self" - Paul Elam

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by MatrixTransform View Post
                  I wonder about our politics and how they might be formed by geography as much as anything else

                  and about our expectations and how they might be framed by circumstance... more than moral certainty.

                  the missus was just talking about time (and some art-ism bullshit). She quoted somebody from a book.

                  something about time and certainty ... about the provenance of ideas ... about 'possible' futures and 'probable' pasts...and how we magically appear in the narrative rather than being written in from the 'beginning'

                  I dunno, I like bleak.

                  Feminism's done its dash I reckon.

                  Maybe soon its going to sound more like actual people actually talking rather than the meme it has become.
                  I think that is pretty valid in terms of people for sure. Feminism hits a wall when it meets people who just listen and don't believe the bollocks they are being told. A feminist really has no comeback when the reception to the points they make is a person staring at them as if they've just escaped from an asylum and have dressed themselves in peanut butter and rat's droppings.

                  The cultural approach has limits, even with how far you can get by influencing through media, schools and universities. There are good parents out there, there are young people who think for themselves.

                  Feminism march on power has been on the basis of it being movement rather than a cult or organisation. But a movement demands change, it opens up attitudes and enables change, a movement doesn't systematically target positions of power, apply manipulation and infect mainstream media to act as it's mouthpiece. The strength turns to the weakness, feminist success in appropriation of state power by using the tactics of entryism, division mongering and appropriation under a cover story of being a movement becomes self contradictory.

                  People can have sympathy for a movement, because they feel it's an idea shift that is spreading in a non-exclusionary manner. It is the ideas and principles that move, not card carrying agitators and propagandists. Feminism can't viscerally convince people that it's a movement towards ending any injustice or towards any cause, because it's well of lies needs to be manufactured, and movements don't have money to manufacture, they are by definition a flow through the medium of people, not a message cascaded down on them. I think this means that the visceral rejection is inevitable, and that is first stage of a 'hearts and minds' turn around, second stage is questioning, third stage is opposition, final stage is social inoculation. Where it becomes like nazism, communism (as in the type M doesn't like), racism, social darwinism, imperialism... and many others that had their day and now mark things that people don't want to go back to. Feminism will find the internet a medium with a long memory, it won't be able to hold on to the narrative as it has done. After listening to dozens of independent reviews of Cassie Jaye's The Red Pill, it is being said that the feminists look bad out of their own mouths and rejection of it's indoctrination is a gut level reaction.
                  "...especially when it comes to communication, it can be observed, if it is not a negotiation it's a war."
                  Originally posted by menrppl2
                  Can't live with em, life is great without them.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I thought "Choice Feminism" was the idea that anything done by a woman is inherently a feminist act because a woman chose to do it.

                    That said, I've mentioned here before, that it does seem like "Choice" is the highest value for feminism. And I don't know if it's because "Choice" is what they want, or if it's an absence of responsibility, but often the two seem to come out the same.

                    Because you see, when choice is the highest moral virtue, then anything that restricts choice is a terrible sin. And that doesn't just mean people who get in the way.

                    Another forum I used to post on would have every couple months a guy would come in saying that his girlfriend is dressing in a more sexually revealing way than he was comfortable with. There was no evaluation of what was going on. Did she change? Is she dressing more revealing? Is she just super content with herself because of the relationship, or she looking for outside attention? No, we can't evaluate, instead the accusation of being a controlling asshole was leveled against the guy almost immediately. Why, because if she actually cared about his concern, she might change her behavior, but if she changes her behavior out of deference to her boyfriend, then she's deprived of the "choice" to dress revealing. (Even though she's actually exercising her right to choose by changing what she's doing).

                    It gets even more abstract if you talk about sex and reproduction.

                    Sex has the potential to produce children. But nothing should interfere with a woman's "choice" of who to engage in sexual activity with. In the absence of a state to force a biological father to pay, and / or legalized abortion, than a woman has to be particular about who she sleeps with, or she might just end up pregnant with no support. In the past people would call that a consequence of her actions. (not absolving the hypothetical father of responsibility, just saying it's something she can avoid by being particular about the kind of person she sleeps with). But to feminists, even the legitimate biological consequences (pregnancy) are a sin because those deprive women of the ability to make free choices.

                    To the feminist mind, it's somehow not a free choice if the potential consequences influence it in any way. So they work their ass off to make sure that the legal system is setup so that women can make any choice they want, even choices that are immensely negative (killing babies, having children out of wedlock with men who don't want to be fathers) while facing as few of the repercussions of their actions as possible. Go on over to a feminist debate about abortion and you'll see, that they think being pregnant when they didn't want to be is a punishment that pro-life people are trying to force upon them, instead of a biological consequence of the choice to have sex.

                    Wrap it up however you like, but feminism being about "choice" means it's about avoiding consequences and responsibility because their mere existence might actually influence the choices that women make.
                    "...but when she goes off you, she will not just walk away, she will walk away with your fucking skin in a jar." ~~ DoctorRandomercam
                    "The laws of man, they don't apply when blood gets in a woman's eye" - The Black Keys

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I like how you phrased this post, Deidre; it calls the situation what it really is.

                      Men are given both choice and responsibility, while women are given choices & rights without responsibility or accountability, and in many matters.

                      Men can choose their jobs, for example, and have the responsibility of supporting a family. And although they're the ones earning the money, it seems that many women think it's their right to spend it whichever way they please. Regardless of gender now, the person who earns the money should have the final say in how it gets spent because they're the ones who worked hard for it.

                      I don't even think women have choices now .. I think of them more as what more can we get kinda thing. Take your example, abortion, and how it reflects badly on social norms. Women can choose to keep or abort the baby. They're not taught to be responsible through taking precautions against unwanted pregnancies, they're not taught that the father is a human being with feelings that need to be acknowledged, and they're not taught that their choice to bring in this child reflects their sole responsibility in raising it without the support of the father if he chooses not to be engaged. These women aren't given choices but pure rights, one after the other.

                      And the list goes on of course; all these rights have turned women into spoiled little brats who are always searching for more things to get, and they are unhappy as hell right now, not despite all of this but because of it.

                      My grandma never worked a day in her life, nor did she have a choice in the matter; it was either being a housewife or an "old maid." But she was always happy, and she still is happy .. always smiling and laughing. Look at how unhappy and unsatisfied women are today. And what's funny is, they keep referring to women in developing countries as oppressed and in need of feminism, while they're the ones who are miserable as hell.

                      Women aren't taught to dress modestly if they're headed to crowded places, they only have the right to complain about men who cat call .. and accuse them of harassment. It's a way of life really .. and a bad one at that.

                      Giving is just as important as receiving; eliminating responsibility is more ruinous that we think.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Darwinian Dead End
                        "Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one" - Charles Mackay

                        And therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; It tolls for thee. - Donne

                        "What we are seeing in this headless misandry is a grand display of the Tyranny of the Underdog: 'I am a wretchedly longstanding victim; therefore I own no burden of adult accountability, nor need to honor any restraint against my words and actions. In fact, all efforts to restrain me are only further proof of my oppressed condition.'
                        "It is the most perfect trump-card against accountable living ever devised." - Gladden Schrock

                        "What remains for most men in modern life is a world of expectation without reward, burden without honor and service without self" - Paul Elam

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Deidre View Post
                          I was reading an interesting article this morning, and it had to do with ''choice feminism.'' Have you heard of this? It basically is a catch-phrase that means a woman can choose traditional roles, ie: stay at home mom, etc whilst still identifying as a feminist. It seems that feminism really doesn't stand for equality between the genders, but instead seems to morph in a few different directions, now basically offering women a chance to do whatever we wish, as long as whatever we wish doesn't have anything to do with a man dictating those wishes. The danger of ''choice feminism'' is that it doesn't allow men any flexibility in relationships (in my opinion), but rather it gives the women all the ''power'' and control. She decides what role she will play, regardless if this is in the best interest of her husband, children, and/or marriage. In the article, is a poignant quote ''women have choices, men have responsibilities.'' While that quote doesn't signify that women don't handle their responsibilities, because we often do, it means that women however, are afforded the option to choose what we'll be responsible for, whereas men don't have as many choices. I agree with that. Society does afford us this ''right'' and calls it good.

                          The pro-choice movement for example, is all about a woman's right to choose, and a man being held responsible to pay child support, if she chooses life. If he wants her to choose life, she still has the choice before her, to choose abortion. Once again, this leaves the guy out in the cold - the woman solely having the choice. There are a myriad of other examples.

                          Choice feminists could be the most dangerous of the feminist sub-groups, as their agendas are insidious, but pervasive. They aren't likely to be seen at Trump protests, or speaking out loudly about rape culture. But, these feminists are the types that believe that they should be able to decide for themselves what works best for them, despite any input from their partners, should they be in a relationship. The woman's significant other either accepts it or doesn't, but if he wants to appear supportive of feminism, he probably will follow suit. They are dangerous in that they are the silent majority, yet in their silence, they wield a lot of power to wreak havoc in their relationships, jobs, kids' lives, etc.

                          What are your thoughts on choice feminism?
                          "Women have choices, Men have responsibilities" is said in another way "It's a woman's prerogative to change her mind". The article you read just confirms what I've been saying all the while..

                          If a woman wants to be responsible she can be, and that's a wonderful thing in a man's life... However, she has the right to 'change her mind' and do exactly the opposite and men just have to 'man up' and 'deal with it'....

                          Nothing new under the sun here. I'm not saying AWALT, again what I'm saying is All women Are Like that If/When they choose to be like that... And her behavior is kind of like a cycle... or a wave... I honestly think a woman's behavior is based on what her hormone levels are at, at any given time during her menstrual cycle....

                          A woman who is totally 'on board' today may be totally not on board tomorrow and do exactly the opposite thing (or act on her feelings). This is the entire cycle of hypergamy... at one point of her cycle she may desire the "hot" guy to procreate with, but then once that feeling passes, she may likely desire her provider beta male (not to use labels, just identify a trait quickly) and be right back on board with him...

                          Prior to rampant feminism, IE pre no fault divorce, there was a stigma placed upon women, by women about being a divorcee, about being promiscuous, about being 'loose'... women used to shame other women, keeping their sexual nature repressed, and placed social standards upon women... The 'free love' of the 60's destroyed all that, giving women the 'sexual freedom' that men supposedly already had (but we didn't, maybe the top tier 'Chad Thundercock's' did, but most did not), but women policed each other's behavior... But the irony of all of this is that those social standards no longer apply, because... 'patriarchy'... blaming men as the ones who policed women's behavior... Which is total bullshit...

                          The more I know about how the lefties operate, the more I know they are nothing more that history manipulators...
                          Ephesians 5 "Husbands, Love your wives like Christ loved the Church". (Wives, give your husbands something to love).
                          "Wives, RESPECT your husbands". (Husbands, give your wives something to respect.)

                          For a man does not truly feel loved unless his wife, mother, and children display respect to him.

                          "From each MAN according to his abilty, to each WOMAN according to her need"... Allison Tienemann

                          "Feminism is a HATE group... Feminists are HATEFUL people"... Mr. e

                          "In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem; government is the problem."... Ronald Reagan

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by MatrixTransform View Post
                            I wonder about our politics and how they might be formed by geography as much as anything else
                            Check out "environmental determinism". Very popular around 1900, a sort of late Spencerian hypthesis à la "harsh climates give stricter selection presssures, i.e. superior races".

                            M

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by voidspawn View Post
                              Feminism ... doesn't care, doesn't have any core values or anything to stand for ...
                              I've said it before, but I think it bears repeating:
                              Feminism's ultimate goal and immediate tool is to make sure that any woman gets anything she points at as soon as she commands it. "Choice", indeed ...

                              sooner or later one of them will invent a new theory ... to slop over the cracks
                              And that is why feminist "theory" _must_ be contradictory and inconsistent, that allows them to select any position on any issue.

                              M

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