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What is the MRA view of prostitution?

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  • What is the MRA view of prostitution?

    Feminists are all over the board on this. Abolitionist and radical feminists tend to favour the Nordic model which criminalizes buying sex but not selling it. Liberal and sex-positive feminists tend to favour decriminalization like in New Zealand.

    Where does the MRM stand on this matter? do we favour the Nordic model to protect vulnerable men who might be trafficked into the sex trade? Do we favour decriminalization because what happens between two consenting adults hurts no one? Do we favour the Nordic model to help sex-addicted buyers out of the industry? Do we favour some other approach to prostitution? Where does the MRM stand on this issue?

  • #2
    we've covered this on many threads.

    some men dont agree with it. some men think prostitutes are the only honest women.

    it varies in the middle

    MRA are not one big monolith of men.
    Originally posted by MatrixTransform
    where were you before you put yourself last?
    Originally posted by TheNarrator
    Everywhere I travel, tiny life. Single-serving sugar, single-serving cream, single pat of butter. The microwave Cordon Bleu hobby kit. Shampoo-conditioner combos, sample-packaged mouthwash, tiny bars of soap. The people I meet on each flight? They're single-serving friends.

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    • #3
      did you have any questions?
      Originally posted by MatrixTransform
      where were you before you put yourself last?
      Originally posted by TheNarrator
      Everywhere I travel, tiny life. Single-serving sugar, single-serving cream, single pat of butter. The microwave Cordon Bleu hobby kit. Shampoo-conditioner combos, sample-packaged mouthwash, tiny bars of soap. The people I meet on each flight? They're single-serving friends.

      Comment


      • #4
        It would seem to me that whether the buyer or the seller is a man or a woman or a boy or a girl, prostitution is the one most exploitative industry around. It therefore seems odd to me that a movement revolving around sex (be it the men's or the women's movement) would not at least try to develop a policy on the matter. At least the feminist movement has acknowledged this even if they can't agree on anything.

        For example, how can a men's rights movement not have a policy on how to protect vulnerable men who sell sex, or even a policy on how to help sex-addict buyers get the help that they need?

        To be clear, I'm not judging men who buy sex, but I am saying that buying sex does reveal mentally unhealthy and problematic compulsive and so addictive behaviour. To my mind, a man who buys sex is not a matter of 'boys will be boys' but rather one of a man who's probably suffered abuse in the past, who acts out his trauma by buying sex, and so who needs help out of the industry.

        That said, I also recognize a complication in this. For example, I'm sure that any person who says that selling sex doesn't hurt him or that he's quite happy selling sex to older women or men, etc. is indeed suffering but might simply be so numb to his or her pain that he just doesn't notice it anymore and that's why he or she defends the industry: they don't even notice how much it's in fact hurting them. I'm sure it's the same for men who buy sex. They may have become so emotionally numb from past abuse that they just can't feel the harm that buying sex is causing them.

        I tend to agree with the Nordic model (to criminalize the buying of sex) even if for totally different reasons from why feminists do. For me, criminalizing the buying of sex helps not only the seller but even the buyer. In other words, it's not about hating or demonizing the buyer, but genuinely about helping the buyer deal with his trauma. To my mind, criminalizing the buying of sex is like banning a problem gambler from entering a casino. It's for his own good.

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        • #5
          i'm 100% with you
          i think men who buy sex are unhealthy
          and women who sell sex are unhealthy.

          anyone who buys or sells sex is unhealthy..however the above two are probably 99.99% of them
          Originally posted by MatrixTransform
          where were you before you put yourself last?
          Originally posted by TheNarrator
          Everywhere I travel, tiny life. Single-serving sugar, single-serving cream, single pat of butter. The microwave Cordon Bleu hobby kit. Shampoo-conditioner combos, sample-packaged mouthwash, tiny bars of soap. The people I meet on each flight? They're single-serving friends.

          Comment


          • #6
            Now that I think about it, what if the sex industry was regulated like the gambling industry is in Singapore. In Singapore, you can't enter a casino without first registering as a member. To enter the casino, you must scan your fingerprints, a passport, or your IC card. Any person can choose to add his identity to a national self-exclusion list. If a person is on the national self-exclusion list, a casino must refuse him entry.

            I'm not exactly sure how I'd apply this principle to the sex trade, but I'll give it a try (and feel free to improve on it since this really is a brainstorm on my part right now). Imagine that, by law, I could not buy or sell sex unless I possessed a valid passport for identity purposes. Should I develop an addiction to either selling sex (as some may develop an addiction to the easy money it brings in) or to buying it (as a way to cope with past trauma for example), then I could sign a standard declaration of abstinence that would make it a criminal offence for me to fornicate and for anyone else to fornicate with me under threat of a heavy fine that would double for each repetition of the offence. My status as a signatory would be stamped into my passport. This would mean that if I try to sell sex to someone, he would have a legal obligation to see my passport and, should I refuse to show him it or should he discover that I've signed the declaration, then the onus would be on him to refuse my offer or else we could both end up paying a fine for fornication. Since the prosecutor would not even need to prove an exchange of money for sex, it would be easier to find us guilty.

            Inversely, should I try to buy sex from someone, the onus would be on him or her to ask to see my passport. If I refuse to show it or if she sees that I've signed the declaration, then the onus would be on him or her to refuse my offer or we could both pay a fine for fornication.

            Police stings could work in this way too. For example, if a man approaches an undercover cop and offers her money for sex without first ascertaining her passport status, then he could be found guilty of attempted fornication and pay the fine. Likewise, should a person approach an undercover cop and offer him sex without ascertaining his passport status, then she could pay the fine for attempted fornication too.

            This way, they'd all know the rules. Any signatory to the declaration would be off limits. Otherwise I could buy from anyone or sell to anyone unless I'm a signatory myself in which case I could buy from or sell to no one.

            Along the lines of a casino model, I guess this might also mean no advertising, not even on the outside of the premises, except online only, and maybe even then only on a government-approved hookup site. To register an account on the site, one would need to present himself in person for identity purposes and of course anyone who has signed the declaration and got it stamped into his passport could not register an account there. This would effectively push prostitution out of sight and out of mind while also ensuring that sex addicts who are trying to leave the industry are helped out. When a person signs the declaration, it might even provide him with information on 12-step groups etc. to seek help.

            I don't know. Would the casino model work for the sex industry?

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            • #7
              Another idea might be that when the person signs the declaration of abstinence, the document would also provide him with information on screen-blocking apps (like Screentime) and filtered browsers (like Mobicip) that he could install should he need help to control his online behaviour. It might even include information on chastity devices for for particularly hardened sex addicts. It could also provide information on 12-step groups that specialize in different addictions.

              None of the above though would necessarily conflict with the Nordic model but could rather supplement it.

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              • #8
                Men who sell and women who buy sex might not be as uncommon as we think though. I've looked it up online recently and it would seem that some women like the Caribbean and the Middle East for that.

                Regardless though, I'm not judging women who buy or men who sell sex any more than the reverse. They just all need help out of their lamentable conditions.
                Last edited by Marteno; 01-24-2018, 03:56 AM.

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                • #9
                  im pretty much on the page that anyone who buys or sells sex is damaged. beyond that ive zero interest in making it "right" i think its "not right"
                  Originally posted by MatrixTransform
                  where were you before you put yourself last?
                  Originally posted by TheNarrator
                  Everywhere I travel, tiny life. Single-serving sugar, single-serving cream, single pat of butter. The microwave Cordon Bleu hobby kit. Shampoo-conditioner combos, sample-packaged mouthwash, tiny bars of soap. The people I meet on each flight? They're single-serving friends.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    My concern though is that prostitution is closely linked to sex trafficking, and the buyer is the one who makes it profitable. No demand, no supply.

                    Again, I don't intend to demonize buyers and recognize that they have often suffered abuse themselves; but just saying that they are then feeding the sex-trafficking industry in their turn and so must be helped out of the industry.

                    One thing that turns me off of the feminist movement is how it's all about women's rights and never about women's responsibilities. I think this is where the men's rights movement could maybe distinguish itself by recognizing that a man's rights come with responsibilities. This would also make the MRM shine through in public discourse.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      i'd be more concerned with the fact that boys are a huge % of sex trafficking and that no one cares about them they just worry about girls and women.

                      that would be what i would care about.
                      Originally posted by MatrixTransform
                      where were you before you put yourself last?
                      Originally posted by TheNarrator
                      Everywhere I travel, tiny life. Single-serving sugar, single-serving cream, single pat of butter. The microwave Cordon Bleu hobby kit. Shampoo-conditioner combos, sample-packaged mouthwash, tiny bars of soap. The people I meet on each flight? They're single-serving friends.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        True. Even men have been trafficked into sex. I have read of men buying sex from other men, boys, girls, and women. I've read of women buying sex from men and other women, but not from boys and girls. That said, I do know that women have molested boys and girls and so I wouldn't dismiss the possibility that women have in fact paid to molest boys and girls too. I just have never read or heard of it, that's all.

                        Another thing that concerns me is the effect into adulthood. I've read of women who are trafficked into sex as children and then, as adults, even though they escape the trafficking, continue to 'freely' and 'willingly' sell sex. Some might then argue that to pay her for sex is just 'harmless' sex between two 'consenting' adults. But here's the thing, would she have 'chosen' to sell sex as an adult had she not been trafficked as a child? In other words, has she just become habituated into it and knows no other way out? I'm not aware of any specific such occurrence with males. I know both boys and men get trafficked into sex, but I'm not aware of any specific instance of a boy being trafficked into sex, escaping it, and then continuing to sell sex as an adult just because he knows no other way out. However, knowing that men do sell sex, we can reasonably ask if some of them, even if not trafficked now, had previously been trafficked. And, just like women buying sex from boys and girls, just because I'm not aware of any specific such instance, I can't say it doesn't happen, just that I personally have never read anything to that effect.

                        Even from a narrow interpretation of the men's rights movement, buying sex from even adult men potentially feeds the trafficking industry or victimizes a man who, even if he's not being trafficked now, has been trafficked in the past. Also, even if we shift our attention from the seller to the buyer, a man who buys sex needs help, and there have even been cases of female sellers sexually assaulting or otherwise abusing male buyers and male sellers abusing female buyers.

                        The above are mostly the reasons for which I favour the Nordic model: it targets the buyer, the source of cash that feeds the demand and that makes trafficking profitable in the first place. However, my reasoning for favouring the Nordic model is different from that of most feminists: I recognize that it helps men and boys as much as women and girls.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          prostitution is one thing but people trafficking for sex..is worse.

                          are we talking about the same thing? i thought you took a turn there and i followed but apparently i was leading.
                          Originally posted by MatrixTransform
                          where were you before you put yourself last?
                          Originally posted by TheNarrator
                          Everywhere I travel, tiny life. Single-serving sugar, single-serving cream, single pat of butter. The microwave Cordon Bleu hobby kit. Shampoo-conditioner combos, sample-packaged mouthwash, tiny bars of soap. The people I meet on each flight? They're single-serving friends.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Prostitution and trafficking are different things, but closely interrelated and the line is often blurred. Even a professional human-trafficking investigator cannot always easily tell between a free agent and a trafficking victim. On TV we see the gorilla pimp who physically assaults his victim. Though that does happen, in many cases the reality is more subtle. The trafficker grooms his victim, makes her believe that he's her boyfriend, showers her with gifts, and then asks her to help him out and makes her feel like she owes. In other cases, a person is loaned money and then made to feel like she needs to pay back. It can be so subtle that even the victim doesn't realize that she's a victim of trafficking (perhaps because she too thinks from TV that unless she's tied up, chained, fettered, beaten, underage, has all of her money taken from her, and has her passport taken, then she's a willing participant).

                            If even a professional human-trafficking investigator can't easily tell the difference, then I don't trust that the average buyer can either. With that, it thus makes sense to just criminalize the buying of sex across the board as has been done in Sweden. The money the buyer gives encourages the traffickers. A trafficker can make upwards of 200,000 per year... per victim! Who provides that money? The buyer, who else? And that's why the line between prostitution and trafficking is so blurred.

                            Up to this point, I tend to agree with radical feminists. Where I diverge is that women buy sex too, boys and even men can be trafficked too, and even the buyer sometimes needs professional psychiatric therapy. I remember hearing in one documentary that even the trafficker is a victim of sorts, often a victim of past abuse (sometimes a trafficking victim herself especially in the case of a woman), etc. In a sense, every participant in the trade is a victim of sorts. That said, however much we may empathize with a trafficker's or buyer's circumstances, we still need to protect the person being trafficked. However much we may empathize with whatever trauma the buyer must deal with, we still need to protect the person being trafficked. France adopted the Swedish model and it limits the punishment to a heavy fine that doubles for each repetition of the offence. In Sweden, the police will direct the buyer towards the appropriate mental-health support. In France too, they go through 'John school' where they learn about sex addiction and where to turn for help, etc.

                            We can empathize with all of the victims certainly, but that does not mean that we tolerate the behaviour. Instead, we should try to help all participants out of the industry. In Sweden, the traffickers likewise get help in prison for example. But we can't deny that cutting off the money supply (i.e. criminalizing the buying of sex) is the most efficient way to starve the industry.
                            Last edited by Marteno; 01-24-2018, 10:01 PM.

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                            • #15
                              i dont find it blurred at all.

                              A) people find themselves in position where they get money for sex
                              B) people are enslaved and are sex slaves

                              now. a picture was painted years ago about women who get used and abused by a pimp who takes all their money. i do not believe this at all. sex workers know the power they hold over men. this was total bullshit painted for us in movies as reality. if you dig a bit you can find the digested wheat.
                              Originally posted by MatrixTransform
                              where were you before you put yourself last?
                              Originally posted by TheNarrator
                              Everywhere I travel, tiny life. Single-serving sugar, single-serving cream, single pat of butter. The microwave Cordon Bleu hobby kit. Shampoo-conditioner combos, sample-packaged mouthwash, tiny bars of soap. The people I meet on each flight? They're single-serving friends.

                              Comment

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