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  • Another Trans Gendered Discussion

    Transphobia is a misnomer. I'm not afraid of trans people, nor do I hate them. I just don't think that they deserve their own gender categories... no matter what they have done to their bodies surgically, they are still men and women like the rest of us. Not because I'm tyranically plotting their downfall, but because evolution really only gave human beings those two options.
    Spoon boy: Do not try and bend the Patriarchy. That's impossible. Instead... only try to realize the truth.
    Neo: What truth?
    Spoon boy: There is no Patriarchy.

    Apparently, women get only 77 cents for every dollar a man earns. We only have 23 cents left, but feminists insist they want the rest.

  • #2
    RE: New Statesman claims that Movember is divisive, gender normative and racist

    Originally posted by MrAndryist
    Transphobia is a misnomer. I'm not afraid of trans people, nor do I hate them. I just don't think that they deserve their own gender categories... no matter what they have done to their bodies surgically, they are still men and women like the rest of us. Not because I'm tyranically plotting their downfall, but because evolution really only gave human beings those two options.
    So intersexuals, people with turner's syndrome, people with kleinfelter's syndrome, and genetic chimeras just don't exist, apparently.
    The ancient shitposter returns.

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    • #3
      RE: New Statesman claims that Movember is divisive, gender normative and racist

      Originally posted by MrScruffles
      Originally posted by MrAndryist
      Transphobia is a misnomer. I'm not afraid of trans people, nor do I hate them. I just don't think that they deserve their own gender categories... no matter what they have done to their bodies surgically, they are still men and women like the rest of us. Not because I'm tyranically plotting their downfall, but because evolution really only gave human beings those two options.
      So intersexuals, people with turner's syndrome, people with kleinfelter's syndrome, and genetic chimeras just don't exist, apparently.
      He can't see them.



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      • #4
        RE: New Statesman claims that Movember is divisive, gender normative and racist

        Originally posted by MrScruffles
        Originally posted by MrAndryist
        Transphobia is a misnomer. I'm not afraid of trans people, nor do I hate them. I just don't think that they deserve their own gender categories... no matter what they have done to their bodies surgically, they are still men and women like the rest of us. Not because I'm tyranically plotting their downfall, but because evolution really only gave human beings those two options.
        So intersexuals, people with turner's syndrome, people with kleinfelter's syndrome, and genetic chimeras just don't exist, apparently.
        What have any of those syndromes got to do with trans people? They relate to having a combination of biological traits of BOTH genders due to physiological and genetic anomalies ...not having ALL the biological traits of one gender while expressing a desire to have ALL the biological traits of the other.
        "Being a cunt doesn't make you wrong." ComradePrescott

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        • #5
          RE: New Statesman claims that Movember is divisive, gender normative and racist

          Originally posted by MrScruffles
          Originally posted by MrAndryist
          Transphobia is a misnomer. I'm not afraid of trans people, nor do I hate them. I just don't think that they deserve their own gender categories... no matter what they have done to their bodies surgically, they are still men and women like the rest of us. Not because I'm tyranically plotting their downfall, but because evolution really only gave human beings those two options.
          So intersexuals, people with turner's syndrome, people with kleinfelter's syndrome, and genetic chimeras just don't exist, apparently.
          I fail to see the point you're trying to make.
          I pick fights with stupid.

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          • #6
            RE: New Statesman claims that Movember is divisive, gender normative and racist

            Originally posted by Maxx
            What have any of those syndromes got to do with trans people?
            The point that Mr. Andryist seemingly failed to understand is that gender is not just A or B. It is A or B for most people, but not all people.

            Originally posted by Maxx
            They relate to having a combination of biological traits of BOTH genders due to physiological and genetic anomalies ...not having ALL the biological traits of one gender while expressing a desire to have ALL the biological traits of the other.
            When it comes to trans people, they psychologically identify as a member of the other gender, even at a very young age.[1][2] And the brain is the most important part of your biology, needles to say, so no, transpeople do not have all the biological traits of one gender.

            [1] http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2211729/Transgender-Danann-Tyler-9-tried-cut-penis-craft-scissors.html
            [2] http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-514627/Boy-10-hangs-telling-mother-I-want-girl.html
            The ancient shitposter returns.

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            • #7
              RE: New Statesman claims that Movember is divisive, gender normative and racist

              Originally posted by MrScruffles

              When it comes to trans people, they psychologically identify as a member of the other gender, even at a very young age.[1][2] And the brain is the most important part of your biology, needles to say, so no, transpeople do not have all the biological traits of one gender.
              Apparently you don't know the difference between biological and psychological. Anyway this is a long and complex debate and this isn't the thread to have it in so I'll just leave it at that.

              Wanna get into this issue start another thread. Let's not derail this one.
              "Being a cunt doesn't make you wrong." ComradePrescott

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              • #8
                RE: New Statesman claims that Movember is divisive, gender normative and racist

                Originally posted by Maxx
                Apparently you don't know the difference between biological and psychological. Anyway this is a long and complex debate and this isn't the thread to have it in so I'll just leave it at that.
                Psychology=Biology. The brain controls the body, moods can affect your physical well-being and all that.

                Originally posted by Maxx
                Wanna get into this issue start another thread. Let's not derail this one.
                TO MODS: Please move posts 14-16 and 19-23 in this thread into a thread of its own.
                The ancient shitposter returns.

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                • #9
                  RE: Another Trans Gendered Discussion

                  Split post!
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                  • #10
                    RE: Another Trans Gendered Discussion

                    Originally posted by MrAndryist
                    Transphobia is a misnomer. I'm not afraid of trans people, nor do I hate them. I just don't think that they deserve their own gender categories... no matter what they have done to their bodies surgically, they are still men and women like the rest of us. Not because I'm tyranically plotting their downfall, but because evolution really only gave human beings those two options.
                    Clearly not, if we have transexuals. Would you say they didn't evolve along with the rest of us?

                    I've always been of the side of removing the trans part in everyday convo and reference. When I talk to a transman friend, I say "hey man!", not "hey, transman!"

                    However, they also do deserve some unique angle because obviously they are not born into their proper gender, or however you wish to phrase that. As such, a pre-op trans-woman going to get her prostate checked would definitely need to identify as a transwoman, or would be outed regardless.

                    One of my transwoman colleagues was going for one such test and the "gatekeeper" was shocked, loud, and obnoxious in the typical ignorant fashion of "but you're a woman!" Or "you're a man!"? I forget exactly, but obviously trying to shove her into a gender binary in which she does not fit. Men don't like getting their prostate checked most of the time. Now imagine trying to get your checked (cause cancer, y'know) and that's the treatment you run into.
                    [hr]
                    However, on "transphobia", just like homophobia, I never like the term because it implies fear (which it sometimes is, fear of the unknown) and not hate (which it more often is).
                    [hr]
                    Originally posted by RustyJ
                    I fail to see the point you're trying to make.
                    He's pointing out that gender is not a binary, as the OP implied.

                    There are more gender outcomes. The majority of us are born into your male/female bodies (and are usually comfortable in them) but some are born into what they feel are not the correct sex, and modern science allows them to change to match the gender society places on that sex. Some animals in nature can do this on their own without the need of science.

                    In the case of intersex, what sex/gender would you place someone if they had both parts?

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                    • #11
                      RE: Another Trans Gendered Discussion

                      It's the whole "not born into their proper gender" thing that I don't get. I get that there are intersex people who are genetically a mix of both male and female. In the majority of those cases, one set of sex organs is viable, and one is not. Therefore they have a "primary" sex, though I don't really care which is "right". In the cases where a person has both sexes, that doesn't bother me any - I will simply address them using the pronouns most applicable to the way they appear to be portraying themselves. Because I don't really care what's in their pants unless I am in a sexual relationship with them. And since I'm not, I just don't care.

                      There are people who were born with one gender's genitalia, and the other gender's brain phenotype. A male born with a brain that is more typically female, and vice versa. I don't see how that's really a problem. If you can explain it to me, I'll be grateful.

                      But the idea that a person was literally "not born into their proper gender" is so logically unsound that it makes me physically cringe when people say it. You are born with what you are born with, owing to the way your parents' genes mixed to form your unique genome. To say that you weren't born into the properly gendered body is, as far as I can tell, literally no different from me saying I wasn't born into the properly handsome body, or the properly 20/20 visioned body, or the proper non-predisposed-to-diabetes body. It's rubbish. You're born with what you're supposed to be born with, because what you're "supposed" to be born with is defined by your genome, not your post-socialized attitude.

                      The idea that children identify as "the other gender" from a young age also doesn't seem logically sound to me. Children don't identify as anything - they are predisposed to liking certain things - "female" brain types have a tendency to prefer social or interpersonal toys, while "male" brain types have a tendency to prefer impersonal objects and ordered systems. Children "identify" as "the other gender" because that's what they're told it means when they display certain interests or desires, or because they are told that there's something wrong with their own gender, especially in relation to their interests or desires. They don't have any concept of "masculinity" or "femininity" below a certain age. They have the concept of "how mommy is", as opposed to "how daddy is" (if they're lucky enough to have a father figure around to demonstrate it), and that's generally their prototype for "female" and "male". And before you mention same-sex couples, they work just the same - the child will generally feel that each parent fits into one of the "mother" and "father" roles, because that's what they instinctually expect, and those instincts are eventually superseded (or reinforced) by experience.
                      Spoon boy: Do not try and bend the Patriarchy. That's impossible. Instead... only try to realize the truth.
                      Neo: What truth?
                      Spoon boy: There is no Patriarchy.

                      Apparently, women get only 77 cents for every dollar a man earns. We only have 23 cents left, but feminists insist they want the rest.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        RE: Another Trans Gendered Discussion

                        Originally posted by MrAndryist
                        "is so logically unsound that it makes me physically cringe when people say it" "also doesn't seem logically sound to me"
                        MrAndy, your incredulity has no bearing on the factual reality of gender identity.

                        Originally posted by MrAndryist
                        Children don't identify as anything
                        Read the links I posted again.
                        The ancient shitposter returns.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          RE: Another Trans Gendered Discussion

                          Originally posted by Prince_Tybalt
                          He's pointing out that gender is not a binary, as the OP implied.

                          There are more gender outcomes. The majority of us are born into your male/female bodies (and are usually comfortable in them) but some are born into what they feel are not the correct sex, and modern science allows them to change to match the gender society places on that sex. Some animals in nature can do this on their own without the need of science.

                          In the case of intersex, what sex/gender would you place someone if they had both parts?
                          Gender IS a binary... or rather TWO binaries. There are TWO possible genders a person can have. Male, and female. In the case of each gender, you have it or you don't. You're male or you're not, and you're female or you're not. Because that's how genetics works. Male, female, or some mix of both. If there's to be a term to refer to somebody who is both male and female (I won't go all Beta Colony and refer to hermaphrodites as "it" unless that becomes an accepted norm since "it" carries dehumanizing connotations), I'm fine with that. Or somebody who is both can choose a gender to portray themselves as, and I'm fine with that, too.

                          However, having female mental tendencies DOES NOT make a person female, being born with ovaries does. Having male mental tendencies DOES NOT make a person male, being born with testes does.

                          There are plenty of well-adjusted people out there with a brain phenotype more typical to the other gender... and most of them aren't suffering from gender identity disorder.
                          Spoon boy: Do not try and bend the Patriarchy. That's impossible. Instead... only try to realize the truth.
                          Neo: What truth?
                          Spoon boy: There is no Patriarchy.

                          Apparently, women get only 77 cents for every dollar a man earns. We only have 23 cents left, but feminists insist they want the rest.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            RE: Another Trans Gendered Discussion

                            Originally posted by MrScruffles
                            Originally posted by MrAndryist
                            "is so logically unsound that it makes me physically cringe when people say it" "also doesn't seem logically sound to me"
                            MrAndy, your incredulity has no bearing on the factual reality of gender identity.
                            My incredulity has no bearing on the logical soundness of the issue at hand. Which is NOT that people have been born into the wrong gender, but rather that people are unhappy about the gender they were born with, which are NOT equivalent things. There are plenty of people who are unhappy about the circumstances of their birth... but life's a crap shoot. You get what you get.

                            Let me reiterate, I have NO trouble understanding intersex; that's just genetics. What I fail to understand is why people FEELING as though they were born into the wrong gender is not treated - as any other mental disorder - with therapy attempting to resolve a person's negative feelings, cognitive dissonance, and chemical balance, but is rather indulged to the point where the recommended course of action is incredibly invasive surgery. And the only thing I can come up with is that somehow it's more lucrative for some group of people somewhere to indulge them and/or suborn them as a cause for social justice warriors to use... and psychiatrists and psychologists aren't missing out on the clientele since generally they're in therapy most of their lives anyway.

                            Originally posted by MrScruffles
                            Originally posted by MrAndryist
                            Children don't identify as anything
                            Read the links I posted again.
                            Yes... these particular children decided they were the wrong gender. I'm more than happy to let a little boy wear a dress and make-up if he wants to.. I'm a lot less sanguine about letting him decide at the age of 2 that his penis needs to go. Because if your understanding of gender is that your penis is the source of all your unhappiness and you need to cut it off, then you have neither enough understanding of the world or gender, nor enough personal maturity to be making decisions like that to begin with.
                            Spoon boy: Do not try and bend the Patriarchy. That's impossible. Instead... only try to realize the truth.
                            Neo: What truth?
                            Spoon boy: There is no Patriarchy.

                            Apparently, women get only 77 cents for every dollar a man earns. We only have 23 cents left, but feminists insist they want the rest.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              RE: Another Trans Gendered Discussion

                              I don't see why a male born with a female type brain isn't just a man who is into typically feminine things, where does the 'I'm a woman in a man's body" thing come from rather than just "I'm a man who likes [girly things]"?

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