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  • Official AVfM Policy on people in crisis or suicidal

    AVFM policy on comments regarding people in crisis and possibly suicidal

    August 21, 2014

    Considering the subject material that we address at A Voice for Men, and especially given the fact that we draw attention from many men who are faced directly with those challenges, it will surprise few that we get comments and correspondence from men who have been pushed to the edge.

    This happens on the main site and the AVFM Forum as well.

    It is a tragically complicated issue, and one that requires AVFM to adopt a general policy guiding what we do when we encounter men who may be suicidal.

    1.AVFM is not a mental health service provider, and no AVFM staff or member is qualified to provide suicide intervention services. No AVFM staff member is ever authorized to act in that capacity.

    2.Laymen attempting to fill that role, regardless of whether they are driven by compassion and concern, are exercising exceedingly poor judgment and could quite easily put the person they are trying to help in even more jeopardy.

    3.If, during the course of trying to provide services you are not qualified to provide, a suicide occurs, you open yourself and AVFM to civil liability and even criminal charges.

    4.Any time you encounter anyone expressing suicidal idea in an AVFM venue, you will copy and paste the following message to them:

    We are very sorry to hear that life has taken a rough turn for you. Unfortunately, no one at AVFM is qualified to deal with this type of crisis, and attempting to do so would be robbing you of the professional help that you should be seeking.

    We urge you to immediately use Google or an emergency phone number to locate a suicide hotline in your local area for immediate assistance. We wish you the best of luck and urge you to return to our forum once you have gotten qualified assistance for your immediate problems.

    This message, and ONLY THIS MESSAGE will be posted by one person in response to comments that sound suicidal. They will be posted only by AVFM management and moderators from the main site and from AVFM forums.

    AVfM Senior Staff

  • #2
    Very sensible message TMOTS, thanks, people who are in trouble need the kind of help that we are not qualified to give.
    “No one is free who has not obtained the empire of himself. No man is free who cannot command himself.”
    ― Pythagoras

    Comment


    • #3
      Understandable but also kind of disappointing
      Interested in men rights activism in the Sydney area ?
      Go to mensrightssydney.com

      Comment


      • #4
        In Defender. Kinda bums me out too. But, it is the right thing to do.

        Al

        Comment


        • #5
          It is particularly disturbing given this study.

          http://link.springer.com/article/10....s.TOCjournals#

          As the level of psychiatric intervention increases, so does the risk.

          Medication increases the risk by 8 times

          Community treatment orders increases by 27 times

          Involuntary admission increases by 44 times.

          If you want to increase the risk of someone committing suicide, call mental health services.
          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pJV81mdj1ic

          What can I say?

          Comment


          • #6
            That sounds a professional way to deal with this issue.

            On too many forums I've seen suicidal posters receive reprehensible replies, along the lines of "Fuck off you pathetic attention whore", and "Cut down the road, not across the street". (Often female-on-male, no less.)
            I hope the admins here won't tolerate that kind of bullying of people in that kind of distress.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Mequa View Post
              That sounds a professional way to deal with this issue.

              On too many forums I've seen suicidal posters receive reprehensible replies, along the lines of "Fuck off you pathetic attention whore", and "Cut down the road, not across the street". (Often female-on-male, no less.)
              I hope the admins here won't tolerate that kind of bullying of people in that kind of distress.
              not that I have seen, more often it's the genuine compassion for those going through difficult places all be it from unqualified individuals often ones who have gone through much the same sorts of situatins, I swear though we used to have an associated site for men's mental health we sent them to whatever happened to that?
              "It is the greatest inequality to try to make unequal things equal." - Aristotle

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Mequa View Post
                That sounds a professional way to deal with this issue.

                On too many forums I've seen suicidal posters receive reprehensible replies, along the lines of "Fuck off you pathetic attention whore", and "Cut down the road, not across the street". (Often female-on-male, no less.)
                I hope the admins here won't tolerate that kind of bullying of people in that kind of distress.
                That sort of behaviour wouldn't be tolerated with or without this policy Mequa.

                I saw what was done by TMOTS and imdefender in another thread and assume that this may have raised the issue of policy. I must say that i thought the assistance offered was admirable.

                I also understand the need for this policy to avoid the liability issue.

                I would like to make people aware that there are becoming services available that are truly confidential, and will not refer to mental health services if a person does threaten suicide. A recognition that sometimes people are just venting, and subjecting them to incarceration and forced drugging might make matters worse. These services are called "warm lines" and have come about as a result of the failure of mental health services to deal effectively with people in crisis. I raise it as one alternative to feeding people into a machine that from the results of the above study, may not be the best place to seek help.
                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pJV81mdj1ic

                What can I say?

                Comment


                • #9
                  To be honest, somebody at AVFM should take the trouble to investigate various mental health avenues, and include a choice between conventional "resources" as well as non-establishment non-feminist ones, to refer people to. For instance, you have this whole website -- and I am sure others -- which protests psychiatric corruption: http://www.madinamerica.com and I suspect if you look into the issue you'd be able to find valuable links.

                  And the interesting thing is, there is a big feminist connection with mainstream psychiatry, that shows up in all sorts of subtle ways. Man-bashing, bashing of hyper masculinity, rape obsession is related to the healthcare system -- and, indeed, when I debate feminists on other sites, I find myself often outright saying "they are not a women's movement, this is the healthcare sector we are talking about, this is crony capitalism -- they just want to drum up business for the healthcare industry." And, indeed, if you look into those who oppose mainstream psychiatry, the numerous parallels between the arguments they make and the arguments made by men's right's activists are striking. So much so, it's almost like you could argue they are overlapping movements in some ways.

                  If you look up "feminist governance" which talks about feminism having infiltrated the criminal justice system, you need to understand, actually both the criminal justice system and the healthcare and in particular the mental health system work together in a crony capitalistic (and sometimes worse than that) way, so you might as well say feminism has infiltrated criminal justice AND healthcare.

                  Just take a look at this article on healthcare corruption: http://www.nybooks.com/articles/arch...of-corruption/ And note, also, that academic feminism WAS a creation of the American Business Community. The same one up to a whole bunch of corrupt shenanigans in Universities.

                  Without needing to take a firm position, I think AVFM should at least mention that there are those who would argue that there is a big connection between feminism and the mental healthcare sector, and who would argue that the source of much of feminist ideology, particularly that which is most repellent, is that such ideology is driven by and plays into the hands of corrupt healthcare crony capitalistic special interests. And in particular mental healthcare. It's gynocentrism married to crony capitalism -- or gynocentrism harnessed to serve the interests of crony capitalism. Just look, for instance, at the funding of rape crisis centers -- the biggest donors are all hospitals and medical institutions.

                  Now I notice this announcement seems to be a response to issues of potential legal liability. And maybe advice given by attorneys.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by nawotsme View Post
                    That sort of behaviour wouldn't be tolerated with or without this policy Mequa.

                    I saw what was done by TMOTS and imdefender in another thread and assume that this may have raised the issue of policy. I must say that i thought the assistance offered was admirable.

                    I also understand the need for this policy to avoid the liability issue.

                    I would like to make people aware that there are becoming services available that are truly confidential, and will not refer to mental health services if a person does threaten suicide. A recognition that sometimes people are just venting, and subjecting them to incarceration and forced drugging might make matters worse. These services are called "warm lines" and have come about as a result of the failure of mental health services to deal effectively with people in crisis. I raise it as one alternative to feeding people into a machine that from the results of the above study, may not be the best place to seek help.
                    Well, you know, to be honest, I sort of think the biggest difference between "professionals" and people with common sense is, "professionals" have liability insurance and powerful institutions to protect their asses, whereas ordinary people attempting to sympathy with someone in a common sense way don't. And, of course, power and immunity from accountability sometimes leads to ineptitude.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Hi dmschlom, haven't seen you for a little while. Glad your back.

                      It would take very little scratching to see how feminist ideology has infected mental health care. The expansion of CTOs is about being able to medicate 'toxic masculinity' without any due process. The figures are shocking when one examines them.

                      I met one young man who was litteraly tortured with a chemical castration, and only when he put a gun in his mouth and blew away a large peice of his face would the psychiatrist change his medication.

                      I feel strongly about this policy, and i am sure that Mr Elam must have struggled with it. I hope that as the mens rights movement grows that alternative services are developed, particularly where divorce procedings are involved. Its a killing machine to me.
                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pJV81mdj1ic

                      What can I say?

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        From the responses seen here, it seems a more humanistic approach to men's mental health issues (as opposed to a flawed medicalised model) would be desirable, is this an accurate assessment?

                        Regarding ideological clinical approaches to "toxic masculinity", one solution would be to aid men to find healthy outlets to channel anger and aggression which are empowering rather than self-destructive, and instead of resorting to harmful approaches such as chemical castration which are more appropriate on domestic animals rather than human beings (except arguably in the most extreme circumstances and with considerable due process).

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Oh interesting. I did not know what you meant by CTO's, so I googled it.

                          http://www.justiceaction.org.au/cms/...nt%20order.pdf

                          So a CTO is a process whereby a person is very quickly or summarily arrested and forcibly hospitalized.

                          I wonder is the underlying motive gynocentrism and man hate? Or is it healthcare profits?

                          In which case, if I were a healthcare CEO, I would be so annoyed at the thought of having to limit myself to using CTO's for ONLY toxic masculinity, when so much more money can be made by using it for other purposes as well.

                          How much more money could be made, for instance, if rape victims - both male and female - were automatically CTO'ed, provided that the rapist was kind enough so as to forcibly introduce crystal meth into his/her victim's systems, all so as to ensure they leave his/her house visibly intoxicated?

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Mequa View Post
                            From the responses seen here, it seems a more humanistic approach to men's mental health issues (as opposed to a flawed medicalised model) would be desirable, is this an accurate assessment?

                            Regarding ideological clinical approaches to "toxic masculinity", one solution would be to aid men to find healthy outlets to channel anger and aggression which are empowering rather than self-destructive, and instead of resorting to harmful approaches such as chemical castration which are more appropriate on domestic animals rather than human beings (except arguably in the most extreme circumstances and with considerable due process).
                            For me, and based on my own experiences, yes Mequa. If the figures I have seen regarding suicide and the family court are anything to go by, something is drastically wrong in that system for men. There is obviously a significant overlap where family court and mental health services are concerned. And yet I can find virtually no research on the topic.

                            With regard 'toxic masculinity' I have spoken to numerous female patients who state that males are dealt with so harshly in the system. Nothing that anyone on this site wouldn't recognise immediately, but it's one place that the issue seems to be magnified. I have personally witnessed two women tearing each others hair out and scratching at each others faces with virtually no consequences. A male need only raise his voice to be locked in isolation and drugged.

                            Still, what i am fully aware of is that this is being done out of the public gaze, and that the complaints process is more weaponised that the police. Without any accountability, it really is a case of while the cats away, the mice are turning to rats.

                            The myth of a chemical cure for mental illness based on the disease model is most certainly flawed. And yet this myth persists in the community.
                            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pJV81mdj1ic

                            What can I say?

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by dmschlom View Post
                              Oh interesting. I did not know what you meant by CTO's, so I googled it.

                              http://www.justiceaction.org.au/cms/...nt%20order.pdf

                              So a CTO is a process whereby a person is very quickly or summarily arrested and forcibly hospitalized.

                              I wonder is the underlying motive gynocentrism and man hate? Or is it healthcare profits?

                              In which case, if I were a healthcare CEO, I would be so annoyed at the thought of having to limit myself to using CTO's for ONLY toxic masculinity, when so much more money can be made by using it for other purposes as well.

                              How much more money could be made, for instance, if rape victims - both male and female - were automatically CTO'ed, provided that the rapist was kind enough so as to forcibly introduce crystal meth into his/her victim's systems, all so as to ensure they leave his/her house visibly intoxicated?
                              No dmschlom, Community Treatment Orders are a way to restrict a person living in the community. Usually involves attending the hospital for Depot injections weekly. Like a short leash. It cuts out the need for infrastructure, but can be used to cast a wide net and forcibly drug people without their consent. The use of them has exploded here in Australia, so much so that they are looking at giving doctors the powers of psychiatrists without any psychiatric training. They need people to write up tickets basically, because the psychiatrists can't keep up.

                              It effectively removes a persons civil rights, based on nothing more than an opinion of a (feminist?) psychiatrist.

                              There seems to have been a wave of legislation that is eroding civil rights at a rapid rate. Our new Muslim Hygiene Act (being facetious here, anti terror laws), anti association laws, joint enterprise laws in the UK, and a huge expansion of powers under the Mental Health Acts.

                              I think that gynocentrism, and healthcare profits can co exist. two birds, one stone.
                              Last edited by nawotsme; 09-04-2014, 03:19 PM.
                              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pJV81mdj1ic

                              What can I say?

                              Comment

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