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  • #76
    Originally posted by mr_e View Post
    I believe the Christian church, particularly the "New Testament" version is much more "Feminist" / Gynocentric. Deidre has been asking me to expound on my opinion but I don't as of yet have it all worked through in my mind to articulate.
    Do you believe that feminism always ='s gynocentrism then, or do you see say... tradcon as being gynocentric but not feminist?
    "De-polarize women and re-moralize men." - Me

    Comment


    • #77
      Originally posted by CamilleLion View Post
      It is my belief that authentically dominant men - are men who are not demoralized and men who still want to stay engaged and have relationships with women... that they control and that is to their benefit, and know how to. I think on many levels, this is what many people want and that one of the things to do - is to study and promote authentically dominant men; support them helping and guiding other men and take "dominance and submission" out of the kink environment (which is hedonic trap many fall into and can never crawl out of to realize the benefits) and generalize it as much as possible. In some sense, I think 50 shades is like a PUA approach to reaching women on an emotional level to something they may not have otherwise have realized.

      I am not sure that those men become "demoralized" until after their negative encounters with women-- ie. the big divorce, the kid-scam, etc. I think many, perhaps even most men come out of the gate ready to swing for the fences and think they're going to be able to hook up with the prime women and have the proverbial house in the suburb, 2.5 kids, blah blah blah-- until reality hits. So I think the sequence of events is sort of reversed for most of these instances.
      FEMINISM is a HATE GROUP - Feminists are HATEFUL PEOPLE
      It's time to call it out for what it is.



      The World of Men - Men's Rights / MGTOW / Sites of Interest to Men

      http://forums.avoiceformen.com/showt...nterest-to-Men

      Comment


      • #78
        Originally posted by CamilleLion View Post
        Yes, it was very fashionable to dislike and criticize the books - and yet, every single woman in my book club admitted it turned them on in private. It's not meant to be an accurate or realistic portrayal at all for those kinds of relationships: its a romance novel = fantasy, not a documentary.
        Movie Theaters Keep Finding Cucumbers After 'Fifty Shades Darker' Screenings
        https://munchies.vice.com/en_us/arti...44c6be2892efb2
        FEMINISM is a HATE GROUP - Feminists are HATEFUL PEOPLE
        It's time to call it out for what it is.



        The World of Men - Men's Rights / MGTOW / Sites of Interest to Men

        http://forums.avoiceformen.com/showt...nterest-to-Men

        Comment


        • #79
          Originally posted by CamilleLion View Post
          K - Grief, there are a ton of layers to this all.

          Ugh, you don't even know the half of it.
          FEMINISM is a HATE GROUP - Feminists are HATEFUL PEOPLE
          It's time to call it out for what it is.



          The World of Men - Men's Rights / MGTOW / Sites of Interest to Men

          http://forums.avoiceformen.com/showt...nterest-to-Men

          Comment


          • #80
            Originally posted by mr_e View Post
            Ugh, you don't even know the half of it.
            Yep, guilty - but trying to learn.

            Cucumbers - lol.
            "De-polarize women and re-moralize men." - Me

            Comment


            • #81
              Originally posted by CamilleLion View Post
              Whelp, lesse.

              * How do you think Feminism / Men's Rights / MGTOW have affected these issues?

              It's impossible to be brief about this. I'm a little uncomfortable with drawing divisions along sex-lines - which both the feminist and MRA have done. I would prefer the discussion be based on the issues and not the sexes of the people. I'm still learning lots about MGTOW but I like the focus being on people getting their individual needs met as opposed to it being an organized movement. I suspect that with so many broken homes followed by college deconstruction - people can't really "individuate" (for lack of a better word) and I see MGTOW making efforts along those lines, at least with men.

              I think this is a good outlook (so is all the rest too, IMO)-- I agree with you that sex should be nearly irrelevant in all but the most specific of situations. Laws have no business being written, applied, enforced, adjudicated in a gendered manner. People should be uplifted on their merits rather than their gender. Everybody should have a fair and reasonable shot at the opportunities in society, but it is up to them to turn them into whatever success they can make from it.

              One of the things that I *despise* Feminism for is forcing me to think of women differently-- as potential enemies and rivals/competitors instead of potential allies and friends. And it's not that every woman *would* but rather it's that every woman *can*. That is the great mindset shift that Feminism has foisted upon society. Feminism seeks to tear down men and masculinity, to break "The Patriarchy" by destroying "The Patriarch" by destroying the institution of family-- by driving women and men apart. And Feminism gives back nothing of value in return. Women are unhappier today than they ever have been, according to all of the polls.

              I think MGTOW is an interesting, but ultimately unsustainable phenomenon. Though it will continue for as long as women keep making MGTOW men. And it is women who have done this, IMO. They have pushed and poked and cried and sued to the point that many men are fed up with the value-proposition regarding getting involved with a woman, and particularly with respect to settling down, getting married and having a family with a woman. Women are given all of the outs while men are saddled with all of the responsibilities and required to pick up the check. With the introduction of no-fault divorce, a woman can pull the rip cord at any time and force him out of his own life and make him pay for it. While she gets away with everything and has no further obligation to him at all. Curiously, we call parents who don't pay their child support "Deadbeat Dads" but a much higher percentage of mothers skip out on their obligations than men. But the system rarely punishes them to the same degree as men-- if indeed, even at all.


              Speaking only for myself. I long for the day that I can hang up my MRA hat and go back to being "just a guy", and/or "just a Dad". I don't want "Men's Rights" to be a "long term" thing. I want to defeat Feminism, tar and feather it and run it out on a rail-- and then just go back to living life and getting along with people-- everybody--- and stop worrying whether they're male or female. Or if I tell a dirty joke in the wrong place. Or compliment someone on their shirt. Or wear a shirt with bikini ladies on it. I'm tired of the "political correctness" and the "thought policing". I'm tired of all of the censorship and language-twisting. I'm tired of the shaming and blaming. I want to go back to just being people.

              But Feminism isn't going away any time soon, and it won't go away without a great big fight either. The hard-core Feminists are well-entrenched now and have insinuated themselves in academia and throughout government and the corporate world in convenient policy-making or influencing positions. It's not going to be easy to root them out and give them the heave-ho. But it's time to call them out on their hatred and lies now. It's time to turn on the ugly lights and watch all the cunt-roaches scurry away. Feminism cannot exist in the cold light of day. It needs the dark shadows where it can whisper its seductive, seditious rhetoric into the hearts and minds of naive and gullible people. Especially young people who are sucked in, indoctrinated (or demonized, depending upon their gender) and ground up by the Feminist machine. Feminism has no allegiance, no loyalty, no honor-- not even toward its own members. It will turn on a dime against any one of them and eat them like hyenas for the merest of infractions, or even for no reason at all. Feminism is a hate group and Feminists are hateful people.

              The MHRM and the Anti-Fem groups are nascent but growing. For now it is a waiting game while we gather strength and increase our numbers. One of the biggest problems we have now is simply waking people up-- particularly Men to their situation. Our society is so female-oriented and gynocentric that Men, as a group, can't even fathom the idea that women-- even just some women-- could be our enemies and intent upon doing us all harm. And yet that is exactly what Feminists are and what Feminism stands for, and it has never been shy nor coy about letting the world know its intentions. All the way back to 1848 and the "Declaration of Sentiments" at Seneca Falls by the proto-Feminists, which amounted to essentially a declaration of war against men-- and up to the present day. The mission of Feminism is to destroy men and tear down masculinity and everything related to the male, with the ultimate goal of relegating men to a service class in society. They of course will claim it's about "equality", but when you examine their writings, their speeches, their teachings, their actions and everything they do-- there is precious little about Feminism which has anything to do with "Equality" and has everything to do with Female supremacy.
              FEMINISM is a HATE GROUP - Feminists are HATEFUL PEOPLE
              It's time to call it out for what it is.



              The World of Men - Men's Rights / MGTOW / Sites of Interest to Men

              http://forums.avoiceformen.com/showt...nterest-to-Men

              Comment


              • #82
                Yep, I agree with everything you said - My preference is to work towards re-integration, not separation where possible. I kind of suspect that will work better if women introduce the topic into mainstream, since I think they are less prone to the criticisms you guys will face.. but I don't know. I see it starting to happen though, much more than ever before.

                I was curious about the following statement you made: "Curiously, we call parents who don't pay their child support "Deadbeat Dads" but a much higher percentage of mothers skip out on their obligations than men." I wasn't sure how you viewed "skip out" - meaning (1). they abandon their postnatal parental rights (adoption, safe drop zone, or turn custody over to the father) or (2). terminate the pregnancy or (3). Yes.

                If #1 - where are you getting those stats from? I've never heard that before.



                Originally posted by mr_e View Post
                I think this is a good outlook (so is all the rest too, IMO)-- I agree with you that sex should be nearly irrelevant in all but the most specific of situations. Laws have no business being written, applied, enforced, adjudicated in a gendered manner. People should be uplifted on their merits rather than their gender. Everybody should have a fair and reasonable shot at the opportunities in society, but it is up to them to turn them into whatever success they can make from it.

                One of the things that I *despise* Feminism for is forcing me to think of women differently-- as potential enemies and rivals/competitors instead of potential allies and friends. And it's not that every woman *would* but rather it's that every woman *can*. That is the great mindset shift that Feminism has foisted upon society. Feminism seeks to tear down men and masculinity, to break "The Patriarchy" by destroying "The Patriarch" by destroying the institution of family-- by driving women and men apart. And Feminism gives back nothing of value in return. Women are unhappier today than they ever have been, according to all of the polls.

                I think MGTOW is an interesting, but ultimately unsustainable phenomenon. Though it will continue for as long as women keep making MGTOW men. And it is women who have done this, IMO. They have pushed and poked and cried and sued to the point that many men are fed up with the value-proposition regarding getting involved with a woman, and particularly with respect to settling down, getting married and having a family with a woman. Women are given all of the outs while men are saddled with all of the responsibilities and required to pick up the check. With the introduction of no-fault divorce, a woman can pull the rip cord at any time and force him out of his own life and make him pay for it. While she gets away with everything and has no further obligation to him at all. Curiously, we call parents who don't pay their child support "Deadbeat Dads" but a much higher percentage of mothers skip out on their obligations than men. But the system rarely punishes them to the same degree as men-- if indeed, even at all.


                Speaking only for myself. I long for the day that I can hang up my MRA hat and go back to being "just a guy", and/or "just a Dad". I don't want "Men's Rights" to be a "long term" thing. I want to defeat Feminism, tar and feather it and run it out on a rail-- and then just go back to living life and getting along with people-- everybody--- and stop worrying whether they're male or female. Or if I tell a dirty joke in the wrong place. Or compliment someone on their shirt. Or wear a shirt with bikini ladies on it. I'm tired of the "political correctness" and the "thought policing". I'm tired of all of the censorship and language-twisting. I'm tired of the shaming and blaming. I want to go back to just being people.

                But Feminism isn't going away any time soon, and it won't go away without a great big fight either. The hard-core Feminists are well-entrenched now and have insinuated themselves in academia and throughout government and the corporate world in convenient policy-making or influencing positions. It's not going to be easy to root them out and give them the heave-ho. But it's time to call them out on their hatred and lies now. It's time to turn on the ugly lights and watch all the cunt-roaches scurry away. Feminism cannot exist in the cold light of day. It needs the dark shadows where it can whisper its seductive, seditious rhetoric into the hearts and minds of naive and gullible people. Especially young people who are sucked in, indoctrinated (or demonized, depending upon their gender) and ground up by the Feminist machine. Feminism has no allegiance, no loyalty, no honor-- not even toward its own members. It will turn on a dime against any one of them and eat them like hyenas for the merest of infractions, or even for no reason at all. Feminism is a hate group and Feminists are hateful people.

                The MHRM and the Anti-Fem groups are nascent but growing. For now it is a waiting game while we gather strength and increase our numbers. One of the biggest problems we have now is simply waking people up-- particularly Men to their situation. Our society is so female-oriented and gynocentric that Men, as a group, can't even fathom the idea that women-- even just some women-- could be our enemies and intent upon doing us all harm. And yet that is exactly what Feminists are and what Feminism stands for, and it has never been shy nor coy about letting the world know its intentions. All the way back to 1848 and the "Declaration of Sentiments" at Seneca Falls by the proto-Feminists, which amounted to essentially a declaration of war against men-- and up to the present day. The mission of Feminism is to destroy men and tear down masculinity and everything related to the male, with the ultimate goal of relegating men to a service class in society. They of course will claim it's about "equality", but when you examine their writings, their speeches, their teachings, their actions and everything they do-- there is precious little about Feminism which has anything to do with "Equality" and has everything to do with Female supremacy.
                "De-polarize women and re-moralize men." - Me

                Comment


                • #83
                  Originally posted by CamilleLion View Post
                  Do you believe that feminism always ='s gynocentrism then, or do you see say... tradcon as being gynocentric but not feminist?

                  Yes and no-- I think they are heavily intertwined, especially where it offers the most convenience and gains them the most bang for the buck. The example of being "empowered and self reliant" (don't need no man) and yet expecting all of the "old rules" to apply when it comes to men-- Chivalry, et al. And not to mention heavily reliant upon the State which is comprised of Men, run by men, funded by men, operated by men mostly for the convenience and support of women and families. They want to dehumanize us as people but keep us around to do all the heavy lifting and upkeep.

                  Whereas the "Tradcon" concept is one based generally on mutual benefit, partnership, alliance, and common interest. Many people would say that the Man is supposed to be the leader-- but I would say that it really doesn't matter, that either one could be the leader, as long as *one* of them is-- and they could even switch off alternate Thursdays, for that matter-- as long as they each know the drill and their roles, and are ready and prepared to do what they need to do within the context of their relationship. But the "Tradcon" partnership is the modern remnant of the "Old Deal" between men and women where the woman promises fidelity and sex, and assumes the traditional roles of mother and child-rearing, and the man provides protection, resources and commitment / investment into the family unit. In the modern version, the roles and duties can be rearranged, but the obligations-- *PARTICULARLY HERS* are still there and fairly cast into cement.

                  One of the things you will find, if you poke through the conversations and threads around here, is a lot of me asking "What is the basis of the New Deal between Men and Women?" and getting a lot of crickets in response. With Feminism working to undermine male authority and remove any benefits for the man at every turn, how is the human race supposed to continue? Why would any sane, rational, reasonable man get involved with a woman who can basically use him for his sperm, have him pay for the house, the cars, the kids and all the amenities, and then boot him out while still making him pay and pay and pay for everything-- and all that sex he was supposed to be getting-- uh... not so much. So all of *HER* supposed obligations to him are meaningless while pretty much *every* obligation and responsibility is placed squarely on his shoulders. So why should men get involved? Where is the upside for them? There isn't any, courtesy of the Feminists who have done their utmost for the last 150 years to see to it that any pleasure, profit, or benefit for the male has been stripped away.

                  Women make MGTOW men. MGTOW will exist for as long as women drive men away. Perhaps longer if it goes on long enough.


                  Feminism is definitely gynocentric-- it's all about, and *ONLY* about, little ole "ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME", and did I mention it's all about "ME"-- speaking as a Feminist woman. I ME MINE. There is no concept of reciprocity or fairness in Feminist dogma. Everything flows one way and one way only-- to her. Feminists never do diddly squat for men unless it somehow benefits themselves first and foremost, and then only if they have to and only after they've gone over it with a fine-toothed comb to make sure they haven't accidently left in anything that he might like, find pleasurable, or make him happy.

                  Feminism only differs from the Ku Klux Klan in its methods, not its motives or ambitions.
                  FEMINISM is a HATE GROUP - Feminists are HATEFUL PEOPLE
                  It's time to call it out for what it is.



                  The World of Men - Men's Rights / MGTOW / Sites of Interest to Men

                  http://forums.avoiceformen.com/showt...nterest-to-Men

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    Originally posted by CamilleLion View Post
                    Do you believe that feminism always ='s gynocentrism then, or do you see say... tradcon as being gynocentric but not feminist?
                    Hi CamilleLion I am new to.
                    First I have to say NAWALT. Then I have to say I am clueless, its just thoughts here, not truths.
                    My offering: They are all feminist.
                    How many of those Trad con women are in favor of repealing and reforming The violence against women act? An act in good faith to protect women used so often to legally abuse men or destroy them in court? How many are in favor of repealing rape shield laws, and revenge porn laws, clearly designed to prevent a man from defending himself against false rape accusations? How many of the trad con men can stop their chivalry for 5 minutes to even consider the voice of the MRA? How many Trad con men would risk the disapproval of women and say that feminism is destroying families? Tradcon women claim not to be feminist, but at the end of the day they are not interested in good fathers or husbands but good lovers, and the only difference is how secretive they need the abortion to be when it turns out he was only getting laid. I read a tweet by a women named Lauren Southern who claims not to be feminist, and stated something to the effect of 'remember when women had three kids and a family? now they have 2 cats and an abortion.' All i could think is, where are your children Lauren? You are a super hot women, by now you should have 4, I can only assume you are saving yourself for that super hot guy that wont cheat, you'll be waiting a long long time.

                    Or perhaps its just 50 shades of feminism, two obviously unequal different groups of people that mutually depend on each other trying to reconcile their social and political beliefs into some kind of egalitarian framework.

                    As I see it it is always about gynocentrism. Don't believe me? take a look at how many posters here seek out the women who have posted here. Even in a place where the idea is that its a man's space for men to talk to each other. Gotta look for the female posters though. More important discussion going on there.
                    OH? You would like to Flame ME? ... ok, come now, don't be shy.... Step into the light....

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