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  • Just another first "hello"

    Hello, people

    I'm happy I joined here, because where I live (Mexico), is easier to upset a lot more people if you criticize feminism, or if you just don't consider yourself one, than if you do, therefore I have a very few people to have a honest and not toxic argument/debate(?), and I still feel that I need to be very careful with what I say with them.
    So, it feels nice to have a place with so many people to talk to without that fear

    Now here's the kicker (I hope I'm using this expression properly): Most of my closest friends, and even my girlfriend, consider themselves as feminists, and every time this topic arises, we resolve nothing and, most the time, we just get frustrated and a little mad.
    I trust my close ones to know that I'm not a dick, or at least I try not to be, and that I don't hate them for being feminists, but we just keep that topic aside just agreeing to disagree, and we get along just fine, because we mostly share a worldview in the things that matter, such as fairness for men and women.
    They would argue that I have good intentions, but that I'm still very indoctrinated by the patriarchy, and I honestly think about it, because in the end, I would like to know the truth, even if it hurts knowing that this is just my inner misogynist self, lashing out, what prevents me from accepting feminism, if that were the case.

    I hope I'm not just being annoying, because I may have some doubts or questions that may only apply to Mexico, but I would like your perspective about the events that might happen over here.

    So I thank you in advance, hope to further my journey towards truth, and I hope I can help anyone with that too.

  • #2
    welcome and.. i think we all suffer from that resolving of nothing ;]

    but arm yourself with facts. facts trump their views allways
    Originally posted by MatrixTransform
    where were you before you put yourself last?
    Originally posted by TheNarrator
    Everywhere I travel, tiny life. Single-serving sugar, single-serving cream, single pat of butter. The microwave Cordon Bleu hobby kit. Shampoo-conditioner combos, sample-packaged mouthwash, tiny bars of soap. The people I meet on each flight? They're single-serving friends.

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    • #3
      Welcome to the forums. I hope you can enjoy joining the discussions.

      Your experience is happening all over the place. I think we are not dealing with a rational position or even an argued and rationalised position, but a religious position, and what's worse a cult like one. That has invented it's own reconception of original sin (being male) and heaven (all being female). It's a cult that in the West at very least, has real systemic power behind it. Governments, corporations and media all sing it's song. But as per usual they are 30 years behind the reality of peoples lives and only capable of singing one type of song, from one genre with one message. Diversity and equality, that they claim to be championing are the first things killed by them, as proven by the intolerance of other views, when the only meaningful test of tolerance is being tolerant of what says you are wrong.

      This is the acid that we here I hope, like yourself pass "I don't hate them for being feminists" nor do we resent their right to be so and to hold their views and opinions. Just that doesn't mean they have any right to impose those views on others. Anyone who wants to live their life in servitude to female supremacists they are free too, but they are not free to give away my freedom.
      "...especially when it comes to communication, it can be observed, if it is not a negotiation it's a war."
      Originally posted by menrppl2
      Can't live with em, life is great without them.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by DonSeñor View Post
        Hello, people
        Hi.

        I'm happy I joined here, because where I live (Mexico), is easier to upset a lot more people if you criticize feminism, or if you just don't consider yourself one, than if you do, therefore I have a very few people to have a honest and not toxic argument/debate(?), and I still feel that I need to be very careful with what I say with them.
        So, it feels nice to have a place with so many people to talk to without that fear
        The only place in town
        So, here's some loose talk from me, which I trust you can sift for usefulness in your situation.

        Most of my closest friends, and even my girlfriend, consider themselves as feminists, and every time this topic arises, we resolve nothing and, most the time, we just get frustrated and a little mad.
        I suppose that is because they use a benign definition of feminism, like "being for equality", i.e. fairness for men and women.
        There are other definitions, given by feminists themselves, like Michael Kimmel, the feminist "expert on men".
        He is quoted in Wikipedia's article on Anti-feminism:

        "Feminist sociologist Michael Flood argues that an antifeminist ideology rejects at least one of what he identifies as the three general principles of feminism:

        - That social arrangements among men and women are neither natural nor divinely determined.
        - That social arrangements among men and women favor men.
        - That there are collective actions that can and should be taken to transform these arrangements into more just and equitable arrangements,
        such as those in the timelines of woman's suffrage and other rights. "

        So in order to be a feminist, it's not enought to believe that the sexes should be equal; you have to believe more:
        You have to believe that everything to do with sex and gender is socially constructed, and not biological.
        You have to believe that all social arrangements, even high suicide rates, workplace deaths, shorter lifespan and much, much more, favour men.
        You have to believe that all corrective action must favour women; men should not receive any help.

        As a sign of special piety, you also have to confess to Patriarchy, an invisible entity that is the cause of Toxic Masculinity, which posesses you and all other men, as well as women who are not feminist, and who make you all do all these bad things that result from the points above.



        One road to take would be to not criticize feminism openly, because to most people that's like advocating cannibalism.
        Say that you belive in fairness for men and women, but that you are no feminist, that should be enough.
        If asked, you can present reasons that show that feminism is not about and does not contribute to fairness for men and women,
        so that you are _not_ a feminist _because_ you are for equality. That will prolong the discussion

        The important thing is to marshal facts (who opposes family law reform?) and statistics.
        Then you can present these, and simply ask: "How do you square this with feminism?"
        Then you are not claiming anything, you are just "waiting for the evidence" ...

        They would argue that I have good intentions, but that I'm still very indoctrinated by the patriarchy
        In other words, that you are not fully human, since you are not in control of yourself.
        Suffice it to say that leaves many options as to how to counter it

        I hope I'm not just being annoying
        Not at all. What would this place be if it was not a resource for sharing advice?


        M

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        • #5
          Hi Don.

          Welcome to the forums.

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          • #6
            Hello and welcome!

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            • #7
              Bienvenido a los foros de AVFM Donsenor.
              “No one is free who has not obtained the empire of himself. No man is free who cannot command himself.”
              ― Pythagoras

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              • #8
                Thank you again.

                Just to let you know where I'm coming from.
                I considered myself a feminist for a while when I was younger,mostly because I'm all up for fair treatment for everybody, then I started watching GirlWritesWhat back in the days, and what she said really spoke to me.
                I was afraid that this was just my rooted misogyny desperately trying to justify itself, my own bias and such, but I gotta be honest with myself, and I started to loose faith in feminism.
                Been watching the antifeminist movement grow in America for a while now, and finally it's starting to happen here, in my country, but's still nothing too significant. Everyone who disagrees o criticize feminism over here is still heavily shunned.
                Now, every now and then I will play devil's lawyer (as I like to call it), and defend feminism with the best arguments I've heard from them or that I could come up by myself, just to see what you guys think about the points that they have that really leave me thinking, because I want to have the weapons to stand my ground and be as clear, polite and reasonable as I can when facing these people.

                I'll try to be as active as I can here, but to be really honest (and I'm not proud of this), I login only when my gf is not around, cuz I would like to save a potential arguing if she noticed what's this site about and that I'm an active member.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by DonSeñor View Post
                  Now, every now and then I will play devil's lawyer (as I like to call it), and defend feminism with the best arguments I've heard from them or that I could come up by myself
                  Very forward thinking. If the MHRM ever "wins", there's going to be a need to take care of _all_ people, i.w. taking care of women, too. To the degree that eerybody is unhappy, everybody has a case, and all cases should lead to uis doing better,

                  I'll try to be as active as I can here, but to be really honest (and I'm not proud of this), I login only when my gf is not around, cuz I would like to save a potential arguing if she noticed what's this site about and that I'm an active member.
                  Golly.
                  Well, if that is the case, that is the case. Good for several posts in itself.

                  Do it the way you have to do it.

                  M

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                  • #10
                    I assume OP is from an affluent family in a city, perhaps university educated. Out here in Third World villages in the mountains, there are no detectable feminists such as he describes.

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                    • #11
                      Two tales from Mexico. I have many to choose from. A few years ago, a successful business man in Mexico City told his wife he would give her an amount around $1500 USD each month to live wherever she wanted, and let him do what he wanted. This usually means he has one or more hot chicks on the side. She accepted.

                      The divorce laws in Mexico City were changed, thanks to the Marxist party. The feminists convinced her to file for divorce and petition for alimony. She did. Pissed off, the man transferred all his business to his brother. The judge looked at the figures and ordered him to pay less than $500 USD a month.

                      I read this in the New York Times, and the female reporter was angry at the injustice of this. The problem was, she violated her agreement to leave him alone for $1500 a month (which is quite a bit of money for ordinary folk in Cd. Mexico.) She assumed the judge would give her the same $1500 that he had willingly given her. The point here is men in Mexico tend to take care of each other. In the USA, your worst enemies are other men, every time. In this case, the male judge took care of him, and she got screwed. She did it to herself by violating the agreement she had made.

                      a close friend, a woman, told me how things work here. Mexico has Domestic Violence laws. Here in my village, if a woman goes to the cops with bruises, they will race out and arrest him and toss him in jail. All very good. But, about three days later, she suddenly realizes no one is working and bringing in money, and she and the kids will be hungry. So, she runs back to the cops and begs them to let him out so he can work. Then, she runs frantically home and hides under the bed.

                      His first order of business is to toss that bed out the window and inflict some discipline on her. She will never again run to the cops when he hits her. Nor will any of her friends.

                      Though women friends mostly assure me that most DV happens when he gets drunk, and she shoots off her nasty mouth at him.

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                      • #12
                        I got distracted and failed to include actually the best story I know of men in Mexico taking care of men.

                        On a board, a man came on and told what happened to him. He had kids in Mexico and came in on what we call a tourist permit for 180 days, no longer called that by the Mexican government.

                        I am guessing he married a Mexican woman and was divorced in the USA, based on details of the story.

                        She was very hostile to him, tried to discredit him with everyone, when he came to visit his kids.

                        She want charging off to the Immigration office, demanding they refuse to let him come in again.

                        The first he knew about it, he got a notice from that office to appear on a certain date. He assumed something bad was going to happen to him, but this was Mexico, not the USA. When he got there, the male official told him how she had come in and really trashed him out.

                        The official said he was about to get Permanent Residence Family Unity.

                        That is what I have, and it is supposed to take two years of steady residence in Mexico.

                        RP means he has a permanent residence card, never has to renew it, can leave Mexico as often and for as long as he wants, and come back any time. Or, not at all, for as many years absence as he wishes, and then waltz in. Oh, yes, he can also work by just notifying Immigration who he works for, no permission needed. Ditto on his address, just let them know when it changes.

                        Edited: How could I forget the most important part of RP. As soon as he gets it with Family Unity, he can apply for Mexican nationality. Hahaha heeheehee hohoho.
                        Last edited by polite_disagreement; 10-04-2017, 06:12 PM.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by polite_disagreement View Post
                          Two tales from Mexico. I have many to choose from. A few years ago, a successful business man in Mexico City told his wife he would give her an amount around $1500 USD each month to live wherever she wanted, and let him do what he wanted. This usually means he has one or more hot chicks on the side. She accepted.

                          The divorce laws in Mexico City were changed, thanks to the Marxist party. The feminists convinced her to file for divorce and petition for alimony. She did. Pissed off, the man transferred all his business to his brother. The judge looked at the figures and ordered him to pay less than $500 USD a month.

                          I read this in the New York Times, and the female reporter was angry at the injustice of this. The problem was, she violated her agreement to leave him alone for $1500 a month (which is quite a bit of money for ordinary folk in Cd. Mexico.) She assumed the judge would give her the same $1500 that he had willingly given her. The point here is men in Mexico tend to take care of each other. In the USA, your worst enemies are other men, every time. In this case, the male judge took care of him, and she got screwed. She did it to herself by violating the agreement she had made.

                          a close friend, a woman, told me how things work here. Mexico has Domestic Violence laws. Here in my village, if a woman goes to the cops with bruises, they will race out and arrest him and toss him in jail. All very good. But, about three days later, she suddenly realizes no one is working and bringing in money, and she and the kids will be hungry. So, she runs back to the cops and begs them to let him out so he can work. Then, she runs frantically home and hides under the bed.

                          His first order of business is to toss that bed out the window and inflict some discipline on her. She will never again run to the cops when he hits her. Nor will any of her friends.

                          Though women friends mostly assure me that most DV happens when he gets drunk, and she shoots off her nasty mouth at him.

                          But that shouldn't be something we're celebrating-- DV is bad no matter who does it, how it happens, or who's wink-winking at whom. IMO, we (in the MRM) shouldn't be trying to construct (or resurrect) some "Good ole boy" network-- but rather try and figure out how everybody can get what they need and not get beaten up or screwed. Not Him. Not Her.

                          That's just my opinion.
                          FEMINISM is a HATE GROUP - Feminists are HATEFUL PEOPLE
                          It's time to call it out for what it is.
                          == REJECT FEMINISM. EMBRACE HUMANITY ==


                          The World of Men - Men's Rights / MGTOW / Sites of Interest to Men
                          http://forums.avoiceformen.com/showt...nterest-to-Men

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                          • #14
                            You are right to assume that I grew up in a city, and that I went to university. It was there where I found the majority of militant feminists I know. Many teachers are feminists too.
                            And yes, is way harder to find a feminist like this in many rural areas of the country, I would dare to assume that this is because many of these comunities are very traditional, very religious, and honestly, very unfair to their women, but this is how they grew up and they find it very normal.

                            Anyway, I agree with you, we need to figure out how to be fair to everybody. I know it's easier said than done, but that's the plan.
                            I really have no interest in keeping women down, or anyone down, specially if they're being treated unfairly.

                            So yeah, over here, "machismo" (I'm not sure, but I think that would translate as male chauvinism) is way more common, specially in those areas I mentioned.
                            Of course I would like that to be erradicated, but as you say, is way harder to find a movement like feminism there. I really have no idea on what to do in these cases.
                            But I think I get ya, over here you have a better chance of being aided by some other male in power, if they percieve that something toxic is going on against you. Still, many feminist would still claim that his is just patriarchy, protecting unconditionally their kind at the expense of justice for women, even when that's not the case.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by DonSeñor View Post
                              You are right to assume that I grew up in a city, and that I went to university. It was there where I found the majority of militant feminists I know. Many teachers are feminists too.
                              And yes, is way harder to find a feminist like this in many rural areas of the country, I would dare to assume that this is because many of these comunities are very traditional, very religious, and honestly, very unfair to their women, but this is how they grew up and they find it very normal.

                              Anyway, I agree with you, we need to figure out how to be fair to everybody. I know it's easier said than done, but that's the plan.
                              I really have no interest in keeping women down, or anyone down, specially if they're being treated unfairly.

                              So yeah, over here, "machismo" (I'm not sure, but I think that would translate as male chauvinism) is way more common, specially in those areas I mentioned.
                              Of course I would like that to be erradicated, but as you say, is way harder to find a movement like feminism there. I really have no idea on what to do in these cases.
                              But I think I get ya, over here you have a better chance of being aided by some other male in power, if they percieve that something toxic is going on against you. Still, many feminist would still claim that his is just patriarchy, protecting unconditionally their kind at the expense of justice for women, even when that's not the case.
                              What, and Feminists don't have their own all-girls clubs where they only help out the sisters? There's a LOT more of THEM than there are "old boy networks"-- then or now.
                              FEMINISM is a HATE GROUP - Feminists are HATEFUL PEOPLE
                              It's time to call it out for what it is.
                              == REJECT FEMINISM. EMBRACE HUMANITY ==


                              The World of Men - Men's Rights / MGTOW / Sites of Interest to Men
                              http://forums.avoiceformen.com/showt...nterest-to-Men

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