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Why all the bigotry from MGTOW?

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  • Why all the bigotry from MGTOW?

    Yes, bigotry. There's no better word to describe the things I've been listening to lately: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PSCxDEIpawQ

    My issue is not with all MGTOW. Hell, I have a lot in common with MGTOW, being a gay MRA that really couldn't care less about what women think of me in my daily life. My problem is with the ones that claim to feel profoundly wronged due to the fact that some of the most well-known and respected MRAs are women, as if women are "corrupting" the movement with their "manipulation", and we must always be careful around them.

    First of all, this is extremely counter-productive. If you are in this movement (that is, if you are both a MGHOW and an MRA), then you want to see results, supposedly. If we have female members that allow our voice to be heard more easily, this is a GOOD thing, and should be considered above your petty pride. So, you don't trust them? They might screw us over at some point? I think the extremists on our side do a MUCH better job of discrediting the MRM than any female MRA ever did (since the mainstream tends to take the viewpoints of extremists as representatives of the whole movement).

    Second, it's about as logical as the feminist view on men. We are supposed to be better than that. By claiming that women always do things to manipulate others and implying that they can't truly empathize with men, you are painting women as sociopaths. There is no logical reason to make this kind of sweeping generalization about half the species.

    You are free to distrust women and avoid them all you like, but calling those who respect and trust female MRAs like Karen Straughan or Alison Tieman "white knights who only want female attention and approval" is pathetic, illogical and delusional.
    Last edited by Teraus; 07-05-2014, 05:39 AM.
    The worlds have shifted.

  • #2
    Yeah. I watched that video. I do agree with Spetznaz in that the criticizing of women's nature should never be off the table for us. Not just feminism, but women. Alison's vidoes on threat narratives and the manipulation of men for women's benefit were instrumental in my understanding of the male need for female validation. (Irony, I guess that a female MRA probably had the most influence on my views of gender relations, eh...)

    But this berating of MRAs, I don't take it personally, but I do think it comes from a lot of MGTOW spinning their wheels. They just don't seem to have anything after MGTOW 101 concepts.

    After getting over my... disappointment with women, I've come to accept it and to accept them for what they are. Men aren't such noble and spotless creatures that we can claim moral superiority. We're all human beings. Men need to learn boundaries, and women need to learn responsibility.

    I am a free man. And if I choose to be an anti-feminist, and support female MRAs, that's my choice. If some MGTOW don't like it, that's too bad.
    Last edited by Chad_Nine; 07-05-2014, 06:31 AM.
    "As absurd as it may sound, today's men need feminism much more than their wives do. Feminists are the last ones who still describe men the way they like to see themselves: as egocentric, power-obsessed, ruthless and without inhibitions when it comes to satisfying their instincts"
    -Esther Vilar

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    • #3
      wimyn can nimbly turn on a dime from any position they might have espoused a little before; when they do don't get in their way !!

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      • #4
        I have liked speznaz's video before and I agree on some parts of this one, and some points made (like not being censored by women in MHRM and not placing a women who don't criticize women in the lead)... but those very points that I agree with are also pretty much strawmen. Because I see that the AVFM Honey Badgers have been critical of women in ways I could not have imagined a man to be. Yeah, men are critical too but 99% of it accounts to incel "baww baww i want pussy bad guy get pussy nice guy dont". THAT is not going to help the movement. (Note: I'm generally talking about that "manosphere", not AVFM because AVFM isn't a male "safe space", i.e mirroring a feminist echo chamber with a genderswap.)

        The speznaz's ideal for Men's Rights to become a male safe space (safe from critique, mainly)... well, that's not going to win any political goals. I guess speznaz's idea is that there need not be any legal reforms - as long as you are happy about yourself. Even if you were alienated from your children (or was alienated from your own father), even if you were dragged to debt or even debtor's prison by your ex. Be happy! Yeah. Be happy. Don't let wimyn critique you and this includes, don't let them help get the legal reform done. Every successful social justice movement is driven by women. That's just a fact - not a moral statement. And confidence in self and introspection does not help you. We are not dealing with internal democracy within MHRM but how MHRM can convince the 99% of non-MHRM to adopt legal reforms. It's they who are gynocentric and they demand we have at the very least a female puppet to tell what the men in the movement want. Yeah, and I agree, a society who needs the same words to be be spoken by a woman just to verify those words aren't misogyny itself is insane. They could just listen to it and determine: there's no misogyny in men's equality. But society is not sane. Deal with it, or wrap yourself in a denialist bubble of a safe space (or like speznaz suggested: solitude, as men don't have the same-group preference women do) and imagine it away.

        I think Men's Rights needs women. Women are of paramount importance.

        But in addition Men's Rights ALSO need to say "Fuck you, get out" to some of their female supporters if they get totally out of line, and generally not give a fuck about appeasing their sensibilities. (Lucky for us, AVFM Honey Badgers do seem to have much thicker skin than even vast majority of men do. Nor have I had to listen to their sensibilities and being told what we should be like.)

        So yeah, I don't think embracing AVFM Honey Badger has ANYTHING to do with validation of ourself but merely an acceptance of the fact that outside our group, gynocentrism is both A) everything and B) never even noticed. Every movement has to deal with the outside world. That's a sad reality.

        ___


        There's also some seriously incorrect stuff there which basically go along the line of:
        ALL women X.
        ...and as a result ALL female MHRAs. A conspiracy. Intentional internal destruction. Pure self-interest.

        Women also can't give "whole truths"? Well, honestly I've NEVER heard a man giving a whole truth either. Not even regarding men's rights. Men are naturally manginas both through indoctrination and evolutionary psychology because it has been beneficial for the society and to survival of our genes. Men have and will internalize their disposability just like women have internalized their intrinsic worth of being the carriers of a womb.

        I also find it funny how he calls MHRM "little manosphere bubble" when he promotes the idea of having bubbles of one person where everyone fights his own war and only with himself, attempting to accept himself and glorify his own achievements (or even lack of them), to achieve intrinsic self-worth for being a special snowflake.

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        • #5
          I might also add that while trusting a woman in "leadership" position (while there's no solid hierarchy in the loosely organized MHRM) has it's own risk, any man carries the same risk as well. A man can go Full Mangina overnight. I've seen that happen. That's mainly an argument against any hierarchy: not an argument against a woman being part of it.

          I also don't see the exclusiveness of MHRM and MGTOW. Why should a person who sees self-defined self-worth as important to distance from action taken as a group for reclaiming worth of a demographic. What is this supposed exclusivity? Where does it stem from? It's OK to have your personal battle and battle as a group at the same time. I just don't think the battle as a group should be limited to men fighting (as it appears also to be in the physical battlefields) and excluding female-gendered persons is just mirroring the depths of how feminism completely fails as a humanist organization which it claims to be.

          Originally posted by shaazam View Post
          wimyn can nimbly turn on a dime from any position they might have espoused a little before; when they do don't get in their way !!
          Wimyn are flaky but men are desperate to make them happy nevertheless. Men are far from immune to dem feminine wiles.

          The only males who even make the claim of being unaffected by women's opinion are MGTOW... and big part of them also explicitly state they don't give a fuck about rights of men only their solitary battle to exit. Why should I listen to an out-grouper more than an in-grouper of a different gender?

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          • #6
            Shit Spetznaz's video on the Isolated Male is on my all time greatest list, likewise his videos on male Victim's and homelessness.
            but this, this, really He has gone completely off the rails.

            Ok look almost all of what he has to Say is indeed part of female nature, but if we disallow for them to be more than simply the way that they are programed if we say No they are incapable of growth or change in any meaningful way where does that leave us?

            Certainly that takes any possibility of a diplomatic solution off the table, if women can be no more than their base nature then all hope for any sort of peaceful resolution to our differences or even peaceful coexistence is gone. It's Us vs Them, quite literally that is the name of the mentality he seems to have fallen into and it's a very toxic mentality indeed. http://www.genocidewatch.org/aboutge...fgenocide.html

            not really all that surprising considering the ultimate end goal of MGTOW is the extinction of the human species same as the "RadFems" or just feminists if you prefer just on a slightly slower timescale.

            he challenges us to openly proclaim what we will and Will not accept, I proclaim that I will not accept this exclusionistic attitude. the two halves of the human species must find a way to peacefully coexist once again, that is the only way forward all other roads lead to extinction.

            so what if women are here because of their own self interest so are we all, frankly it's more than a little hypocritical of him to complain about that while simultaneously praising male self determination and encouraging men to act according to their own self interests. female MRA's controlling the discussion? hardly except by offering a gentle reminder that women can be more than their evolutionary programing or socialization.

            They should not be praised more than men for doing or saying the same things, neither should they be praised less. As has often been pointed out because of our gynocentric society their words carry more weight to the world at large who we are trying desperately to get our message to, they can't be dismissed out of hand purely for being male the way the rest of us can.
            "It is the greatest inequality to try to make unequal things equal." - Aristotle

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            • #7
              We all have our own version of utopia, and that's okay. The problem I see is when one person or group try to impose their version of utopia upon everyone else. That's why we form friendships. We gravitate toward like minds and choose to associate with each other.

              Me personally, I don't have a problem with feMRA's. I appreciate that they are speaking for us. Yes they do have their own agenda, as does every other person, I accept that as a natural part of human nature.

              I also accept the I are desire to seek validation as part of human nature. I accept males need to protect and provide for women, as well as women's need to inspire (manipulate) men to protect and provide. You can believe it comes from biology, social evolution, or by God's design, your choice.

              I feel this is the wisest approach to take, as it is said that a wise mind is the ability to form your feelings within reality and take action within that reality.

              The bible points to this nature and tells humans how to behave best toward dealing with the opposite sex. You may disregard the bible as a fairy tale or whatever, I don't care, however I believe the message is good. Ephesians 5 says, " husbands, love your wives. Wives, love your husbands." What does that really mean? IMHO, I believe one should place "special privilage" to a single human being and not confuse that with all human beings. What do I mean by that? Men have a tendency to "love" all women, by placing them in front of themselves, seeking approval. I must resist that desire and reserve that for the special one.

              And I believe the opposite should be true for women with regards to respect.

              Now to understand me fully I must define what I mean by love and respect. Love is to give selflessly, without expect ion of anything in return. Respect is to place oneself behind another, or to be submissive. Not slave type submissive, rather to capitulate to another's desires If you disagree.

              These concepts should not be used in loose relationships such as MRM, political and such.

              I accept whatever assistance a female is willing to give to my version of utopia, as long as she doesn't try to impose her version of utopia upon me.

              Have a nice day.
              Ephesians 5 "Husbands, Love your wives like Christ loved the Church". (Wives, give your husbands something to love).
              "Wives, RESPECT your husbands". (Husbands, give your wives something to respect.)

              For a man does not truly feel loved unless his wife, mother, and children display respect to him.

              "From each MAN according to his abilty, to each WOMAN according to her need"... Allison Tienemann

              "Feminism is a HATE group... Feminists are HATEFUL people"... Mr. e

              "In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem; government is the problem."... Ronald Reagan

              Comment


              • #8
                MGTOW generally fears being controlled by women, this isn't going away, the differences (though not totally understood) between men and women aren't going away. MGTOW are very much about the brutal truth as one sees it, which is a politically terrible move for the MRM even if they partially agree with any MGTOW thoughts, so I'm not sure where this whole thing is going to go. There is a tremendous amount of underlying pain in this movement based on a endless history of men being manipulated by women, oftentimes willingly, and the realization of that which should be repeatedly, calmly be brought up, if anything, to stop any kind of prolonged arguments from breaking out.

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                • #9
                  What needs to be held by women in the movement and truly grokked and owned is what Karen clearly said - women have a HELL of a lot of power and they HAVE to be VERY mindful of that fact, and be VERY responsible with how they handle it.

                  It goes VERY deep. Man's deepest feelings and his entire core is unlocked through sex - any woman he lets in that far has full administrative access to him. The Pinis defined it pretty well in their concept of a Soul name - it was a backdoor password that meant the male is utterly defenceless.

                  http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.ph...=Main.ElfQuest

                  With that level of access, one wrong move can utterly destroy a man.

                  And many MGTOWs have been through that... been used, abused and tossed aside when they had given their all. I myself was sexually abused by girls at age 13 - add a -5yr delay in male/female development and a -4 year delay due to autism - I was 5 or 6 in sociosexual developmental terms.. it's left one HELL of a deep scar.

                  With Yvette Cooper talking about putting in a Women's Minister so that men are completely demonised if Labour get in.. I am now frightened.

                  It's self-preservation... it will take a LOT of time to trust enough... if people would consider MGTOW as the rear-rear or even "military hospitals" - we're more often casualties in this war...

                  The Honeybadgers are examples of the only women I could trust... because they are conscious and mindful of how responsible they need to be. And even then...

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Yes, literally everything everyone does is motivated by satisfaction. This satisfaction, however, can originate from empathy. If I save a puppy from being torn to shreds (or anyone else that I can trust to not be evil), that will make me feel good, even though there's nothing the puppy can do for me. In other words, I'm not a sociopath.

                    Likewise, what is stopping women from doing things because they legitimately care about a man/men in general? Sure, they have that bias in favor of their own sex, but that isn't enough to absolutely annihilate any empathy they can have for men, either, as far as I'm concerned.
                    The worlds have shifted.

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                    • #11
                      I'm a MGTOW and I have no problems admitting I don't trust women, at all. The major reason why I don't is because you don't see women calling other women out. I don't mean women calling out mainstream female feminists or feminists in general, I mean your everyday, average woman.

                      Until I see women on a grand scale calling other women out on their bullshit, I am going to remain skeptical. When a woman in public jokes about "taking her husband to the cleaners" other women should lambaste the shit out of her with contempt and shame.


                      Just because a woman speaks out against feminism means absolutely nothing to me. Feminism is a symptom of a greater issue, it is easy to get up there and throw feminism under the bus than it is to call out your fellow sister on her bullshit. When I see women do more than talking, maybe my stance will change.

                      Like politicians, you don't listen to what they say, you watch what they do. I have the same viewpoints on women.
                      Last edited by Bolo; 07-05-2014, 04:18 PM.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Bolo View Post
                        I'm a MGTOW and I have no problems admitting I don't trust women, at all. The major reason why I don't is because you don't see women calling other women out. I don't mean women calling out mainstream female feminists or feminists in general, I mean your everyday, average woman.
                        Strange. I see Karen doing that nearly all the time.
                        The worlds have shifted.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          So there are 3.499999999 billion women acting the way Spetz is pointing out, and here we have someone insisting half the conversation has to be about the one woman acting differently.

                          So thanks, Teraus. I thought Spetz was being nuts about such behavior until you displayed it. Now I think he's absolutely right.
                          Of course, that's just my opinion. I could be wrong.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Bolo View Post
                            I'm a MGTOW and I have no problems admitting I don't trust women, at all. The major reason why I don't is because you don't see women calling other women out. I don't mean women calling out mainstream female feminists or feminists in general, I mean your everyday, average woman.

                            Until I see women on a grand scale calling other women out on their bullshit, I am going to remain skeptical. When a woman in public jokes about "taking her husband to the cleaners" other women should lambaste the shit out of her with contempt and shame.


                            Just because a woman speaks out against feminism means absolutely nothing to me. Feminism is a symptom of a greater issue, it is easy to get up there and throw feminism under the bus than it is to call out your fellow sister on her bullshit. When I see women do more than talking, maybe my stance will change.

                            Like politicians, you don't listen to what they say, you watch what they do. I have the same viewpoints on women.
                            Very well put. In this world of feminist driven political correctness, rarely will a woman will take a moral stand against another woman. Instead, they " support" them in whatever immorality they have rationalized themselves into. Even if the woman doesn't like the behavior of the woman, she will choose just to remain silent and fail to point out the bad behavior.

                            Until women as a whole, individually hold other women as accountable as they hold men to, there will never be a trust.

                            Now that goes for men also. I personally have a male friend who has affairs with married women. He really hates it when I tell him what he's doing is wrong.
                            Ephesians 5 "Husbands, Love your wives like Christ loved the Church". (Wives, give your husbands something to love).
                            "Wives, RESPECT your husbands". (Husbands, give your wives something to respect.)

                            For a man does not truly feel loved unless his wife, mother, and children display respect to him.

                            "From each MAN according to his abilty, to each WOMAN according to her need"... Allison Tienemann

                            "Feminism is a HATE group... Feminists are HATEFUL people"... Mr. e

                            "In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem; government is the problem."... Ronald Reagan

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                            • #15
                              It was the same "silence is consent" model within feminism that led to the whole movement being as radical as it is - and with Yvette Cooper (Labour shadow Cabinet politician in the UK) announcing that they were going to appoint a Women's Minister and effectively criminalise men if they get in at the next General Election...

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