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  • #46
    Originally posted by mr_e View Post
    What hard evidence do you have for this last statement? What can you point to that shows unequivocally that Trump is or panders to any of those groups? All I have ever seen / heard are spun claims of the partisan type and nothing actually real, substantial or concrete that establishes an actual link. I think it has been determined that Trump knows or knew David Duke and has had some dealings with him in the past. But then, so have a lot of people-- on BOTH sides. I don't hear anybody making the claim about them. But Trump himself is not (clearly and obviously) responsible for any claim that Duke makes, or that the KKK makes, or that any "right-wing" / "hate-oriented" group makes or has made-- unless you have clear evidence to the contrary. You can have Charles Manson coming out for Hillary Clinton, and as much as I hate that bitch, unless you can find a tape of her collaborating with him and/or soliciting him for the statement, you really cannot make the case that Hillary Clinton is a Charles Manson Baby-Killer Lover.

    I see you doing your best to present the information as fairly as you can, and I commend you for that. But I am asking (sincerely, because I want to know / find out)-- how are you making the final leap to Trump being complicit and in collusion with any of these groups? He has publicly disavowed them now, recently, and in the distant past even before he started running.

    But I will make one final conjecture-- Trump *IS* a bit egotistical (I certainly think there is plenty of well-documented evidence of that) and (IMO) lacks quite a bit in the social-ethics department, and I wouldn't put it past him-- particularly in the run-up to the campaign-- to drag his feet a little in making his statement so that *BOTH* sides can make from it what they will (with NO input from him)-- which I will happily and unequivocally agree is scuzzy as hell--but it *still* doesn't equate to collusion with any of those groups.

    For the record, I am not a Trump-lover. I did vote for him, and I will praise the heavens that he got elected over Hillary until my dying day-- but that's the complete and sum total of my affinity for Trump. However, that said, I will neither jump on the bandwagon to condemn his every move simply because Hillary didn't win. I think he's spastic, egotistical, a shitshow, and a whole bunch of other things-- but so far, nobody has been able to positively show me how he is connected with "hate". Spews a lot of shit, I agree. Says a lot of stupid stuff, I agree. Says stuff he really ought not to and has to walk it back, I agree to that too. He's a fucking nightmare on wheels. No question about it. But is he *really* connected to hate? So far I haven't seen it.
    This groups have make clear statements that they support Trump...

    Trump in the other hand have not make such strong statement to let them know he is not their friend.

    But then again... as you say, he seems to try to play it fool so he stays open to all... he have hint he is a zionist, as well...

    Eventually he will have to spill the beans and make it clear what his ideologies are.

    But for sure, not helpful that he stays silent or tries to spread blame around when a neo nazi does an attack... back to what i say in OP... when a group of muslims burned down 2 cars in Sweden Trump talked for over a month denounces hate muslim... now all of the sudden he want to be moderated with his statements, and no rush conclusions... and so on... This is starting to look like a pattern on him...

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by mr_e View Post
      But if you look at the beginning of the tape-- the one taken from the street-- there were LOTS of people he could have mowed down on his way to the center. He was *avoiding* them-- why?
      Hard to know why... if I am to guess... he was still in doubts if he do it or not... but eventually he committed to it and then went ahead.

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by simpleman View Post
        KKK supports and celebrates the car attack:

        http://amp.charlotteobserver.com/new...167303682.html

        I used to live in Charlotte, and sadly there was a lot of this type of thing down there. I don't understand people who hate other people based on their unalterable attributes. Their ideologies-- fine. But to hate people for things they cannot change, that's wrong and evil. A lot of it though was bluff and bluster, part of the culture. But there certainly was the core element who were the real deal.

        And I'm not defending them when I say this-- this is an "and" not a "but"-- *AND* there was also a large contingent of black people who were every bit as ready to go at it as the whites. Some of the most heinous crimes you'll read about have happened at their hands. I won't regale you with any tales because I'm not interested in justifying any of it. I'm just saying that there are multiple sides there.

        You can mull over whether one side or the other "started it" or "keeps it going"-- but in the end, what difference does it really make? Pointing fingers doesn't solve the problem, it only perpetuates it.

        The whole thing is extremely sad-- dangerously sad. And what's worse is that there is a culture of it-- all of it, on all sides-- and people grow up in it, are indoctrinated in it, and caught up in it, and can't see past it to let it go. And so the cycle of violence repeats and is perpetuated and passed along from father to son, brother to brother and even mothers to their children. There is hate there. Lots of hate.

        But there are also good people there too. And people who are just a little fringed around the edges. And it's sometimes hard to know who is who and which is which.
        FEMINISM is a HATE GROUP - Feminists are HATEFUL PEOPLE
        It's time to call it out for what it is.



        The World of Men - Men's Rights / MGTOW / Sites of Interest to Men

        http://forums.avoiceformen.com/showt...nterest-to-Men

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by Dee View Post
          - Aside from simpleman, what took you so long? This by far exceeds the importance of the "Damoron" case at least.
          Except this is a Men's Rights forum and the James Damore story is actually more topical to the nature of the forum as it is specifically about gender differences and attitudes toward discussing those differences.

          Originally posted by Dee View Post
          - Going over some of the responses, you may not have grasped what actually happened.

          - A man mowed down a group of human beings with his car.

          - Here it goes again in case it didn't sink in: A man .. mowed down .. a group of human beings with his car.

          - This was only one man, his actions doesn't represent the entire group, and what he did was horrific and a clear-cut case of domestic terrorism.
          Everyone understands what happened. Some of us simply have a less myopic view than you.

          There seems to be this hyper-focus on condemning the actions of Mr Fields to the point where any acknowledgement of the other things that went on is somehow disrespectful to the memory of Ms. Heyer. Her death and the injuries suffered by other who were struck are unconscionable. But that was not the only act of violence that occurred, simply the one with the most tragic consequences. Acknowledging the others doesn't diminish this one.

          The truth is that Charlottesville is just one more rotation around the circle of escalation. Antifa attacks people at one event, people who think antifa might be invovled at the next event bring more things to use as weapons. So Antifa has to bring more weapons to the next rally. And then whoever's opposite antifa has to bring more weapons to the rally after that. And so on

          Originally posted by Dee View Post
          - During stressful times like these, the entire nation looks upon one man: The President. They wait for his condemnation of this horrendous act first. And they look to him for words of comfort & great reassurance that such acts will never happen again.
          I don't know about other people, but I haven't needed some authority figure to tell me what is and isn't moral since I was a teenager. Nobody needs to hear the President condemn a murder because everyone knows that murder is wrong. The President weighing in on it changes precisely nothing.

          The opposition to Trump has been more acrimonious than anything I've ever seen in American Politics. And that's the problem. People who hate President Trump are pissed off because he didn't do something he shouldn't have to do in the first place. If people didn't already want to believe the worst about him, it wouldn't be necessary for him to put on a show of condemning something that every decent person finds reprehensible!

          Demanding someone condemn something that on it's very face is reprehensible is functionally no different than accusing someone of being a shitty person. Implicit in the very request / demand is an insult that shouldn't be borne. if I demanded that you condemn pedophilia I doubt you'd be dense enough not to see that I'm challenging you to prove you're not a pedophile, with the implication being that if you don't comply, you must be a pedophile.

          It's patently absurd. Nevermind that there is quite literally nothing Trump could have done to appease his critics. They are looking at all times to find fault.

          Meanwhile 9 people were killed and 30 injured in Chicago last weekend. Where's the outrage. It's Thursday already and I have yet to hear Trump condemn any of these murders. There are roughly 16,000 homicides in the US each year. That 43 people per day on average. Where's the outrage over silence on that? Oh....they're not individually politicized so they're not important.

          Rational people condemn the initiation of violence. That means condemning it when it's some asshole driving a car into a crowd. It means condemning it when it's a white nationalist swinging a stick at someone's head. It means condemning it when it's antifa swing bicycle locks at people's heads. IT....IS....NOT....OKAY

          The truth is that both sides actually are to blame for the escalating tensions and both sides are to blame for part of the violence. The tragic murder of Ms. Heyer and the reprehensible acts by Mr. Fields don't negate that. But focusing myopically on the car incident will effectively obscure the bigger picture.

          Originally posted by Dee View Post
          - Being aware of their public responsibility, republicans across the country wasted no time in harshly condemning the attack, including Jeff Sessions who labeled the attack as an act of terrorism .. and that guy's super conservative and viewed negatively by minorities & activists.
          But they shouldn't have to. It should be understood. It's almost insane. 99% of the world thinks action A is wrong so instead of watching out for the 60 Million people who think it's okay, we need to make the 5.94 Billion all affirm that it's not?
          "...but when she goes off you, she will not just walk away, she will walk away with your fucking skin in a jar." ~~ DoctorRandomercam
          "The laws of man, they don't apply when blood gets in a woman's eye" - The Black Keys

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by simpleman View Post
            As longs as you don't claim that a washington swamp pedophile lizard was driving the car... I guess you have not crossed the line of sanity with your conspiracy theories.

            In posting this link, I am not calling you "dumb", but rather saying it goes both ways:

            Google Search on "Antifa" - Pick any link you like
            https://www.google.com/search?num=30...&bih=915&dpr=2

            There are multiple forces at work here. At least one of them (Antifa) has publicly vowed to be violent, and has been shown on camera being violent. I am not claiming that the right is not nor has not been violent, or was not violent on that day. All I'm saying is that we are all being played. What we *think* happened, and what *looks* like it happened isn't the whole story. That's all I'm saying.
            FEMINISM is a HATE GROUP - Feminists are HATEFUL PEOPLE
            It's time to call it out for what it is.



            The World of Men - Men's Rights / MGTOW / Sites of Interest to Men

            http://forums.avoiceformen.com/showt...nterest-to-Men

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by mr_e View Post
              In posting this link, I am not calling you "dumb", but rather saying it goes both ways:

              Google Search on "Antifa" - Pick any link you like
              https://www.google.com/search?num=30...&bih=915&dpr=2

              There are multiple forces at work here. At least one of them (Antifa) has publicly vowed to be violent, and has been shown on camera being violent. I am not claiming that the right is not nor has not been violent, or was not violent on that day. All I'm saying is that we are all being played. What we *think* happened, and what *looks* like it happened isn't the whole story. That's all I'm saying.
              And yet it's somehow "offensive" for Trump to acknowledge that there's violent agitators on all sides.

              Wait. That truth doesn't fit some people's ideological world-views. I guess that means it's okay for them to get violent with me.
              "...but when she goes off you, she will not just walk away, she will walk away with your fucking skin in a jar." ~~ DoctorRandomercam
              "The laws of man, they don't apply when blood gets in a woman's eye" - The Black Keys

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by simpleman View Post
                As longs as you don't claim that a washington swamp pedophile lizard was driving the car... I guess you have not crossed the line of sanity with your conspiracy theories.
                Suspect in congressional shooting was Bernie Sanders supporter, strongly anti-Trump
                http://www.cnn.com/2017/06/14/homepa...ile/index.html

                Emerging portrait of shooting suspect James T. Hodgkinson: Anti-Trump rhetoric on social media, repeat visits to YMCA near Virginia ballfield
                https://www.washingtonpost.com/local...88f_story.html


                So what about this guy? If he was a Trump *SUPPORTER* instead of ANTI-TRUMP, we'd *still* be hearing about it. But despite the fact that he quit his job and drove all the way from Illinois to attack a totally undefended baseball field full of (what he believed) were REPUBLICAN / right-wing members of congress and their staff-- and calmly stood there for around ten minutes or so shooting everybody he could find-- wounding five people including a US Senator-- but for the grace of God and a bullet from a stricken police officer, no one died.

                "Trump is a Traitor. Trump Has Destroyed Our Democracy. It's Time to Destroy Trump & Co." he posted on his personal Facebook page on March 22.


                "Republicans are the Taliban of the USA," he posted in February.

                He was a extreme as they come.

                And yet, curiously, after an initial news cycle or two, the whole thing has been pretty much swept right off the table.

                Nobody wants *THAT* story. It quite inconveniently doesn't fit anybody's narrative.
                FEMINISM is a HATE GROUP - Feminists are HATEFUL PEOPLE
                It's time to call it out for what it is.



                The World of Men - Men's Rights / MGTOW / Sites of Interest to Men

                http://forums.avoiceformen.com/showt...nterest-to-Men

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by simpleman View Post
                  As longs as you don't claim that a washington swamp pedophile lizard was driving the car... I guess you have not crossed the line of sanity with your conspiracy theories.

                  Or these folks...

                  Behind Berkeley’s Semester of Hate
                  https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/04/e...-berkeley.html

                  2017 Berkeley protests
                  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Berkeley_protests

                  These are people who *openly admit* that they are not only *prepared to be violent* but actually have gone on camera and *been violent* at at LEAST three separate known rallies.

                  They are ANTIFA -- the people committing violent acts on behalf of the LEFT.
                  FEMINISM is a HATE GROUP - Feminists are HATEFUL PEOPLE
                  It's time to call it out for what it is.



                  The World of Men - Men's Rights / MGTOW / Sites of Interest to Men

                  http://forums.avoiceformen.com/showt...nterest-to-Men

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by simpleman View Post
                    This groups have make clear statements that they support Trump...

                    Trump in the other hand have not make such strong statement to let them know he is not their friend.

                    But then again... as you say, he seems to try to play it fool so he stays open to all... he have hint he is a zionist, as well...

                    Eventually he will have to spill the beans and make it clear what his ideologies are.

                    But for sure, not helpful that he stays silent or tries to spread blame around when a neo nazi does an attack... back to what i say in OP... when a group of muslims burned down 2 cars in Sweden Trump talked for over a month denounces hate muslim... now all of the sudden he want to be moderated with his statements, and no rush conclusions... and so on... This is starting to look like a pattern on him...
                    He's also gotten his ass handed to him a number of times at this point by the press, by the public, by the rest of the world, and undoubtedly by his own advisors, and probably even his own wife and daughter. Why should it be a surprise to anybody that he is taking it slow? I'm sure he knows the truth better than anybody (given his position and various clandestine investigative connections) that there are at least multiple factions operating here and he has to be very careful with what he says. Plus, *I* believe the truth is that it doesn't really matter a rat's ass WHAT he says, the Left is going to find *some way* to spin it into whatever *hateful* thing THEY want to believe. He was TOO quick to condemn it-- he must have known beforehand it was going to happen. He didn't name the right group-- clearly he was favoring the other group. He disavows them all-- oh my God, he is trying to pretend like *THEY* weren't involved----> whatever. It doesn't matter what he says or said. Nobody is listening TO HIM. They are only waiting for him to say *anything at all* so they can run away and twist it and spin it and stretch it and mold it into whatever THEY WANT IT TO MEAN. He could stand there and make fucking finger-shadows on the wall and they would claim he was making "White Supremacy Symbols" in silhouette.

                    Donald Trump, strangely-- especially for a man so egotistically and self-centered as he is-- is the *ONE GUY* who really DOESN'T MATTER A WHIT in this situation. He's damned if he does. He's damned if he doesn't. If he shows up they'll make something out of that. If he stays home with the pillow over his head, they'll make something out of that instead.

                    What the fuck is he SUPPOSED to do? What would he say that would satisfy you or anybody else who is looking for his head on a paper plate?
                    FEMINISM is a HATE GROUP - Feminists are HATEFUL PEOPLE
                    It's time to call it out for what it is.



                    The World of Men - Men's Rights / MGTOW / Sites of Interest to Men

                    http://forums.avoiceformen.com/showt...nterest-to-Men

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by simpleman View Post
                      Hard to know why... if I am to guess... he was still in doubts if he do it or not... but eventually he committed to it and then went ahead.

                      Okay, that's a reasonable supposition. But it's also clear then that there can be other ways to look at it.

                      Let us suppose-- simply for the sake of argument-- again I'm not saying it happened this way-- let us suppose that he DID go there with FULL INTENT to murder everybody and changed his mind and was looking for a way out and *accidently* ran over somebody.

                      He would be innocent.

                      As bad as it was, and as horrible a thing that happened-- *IF* (and only IF) that's what happened-- it wouldn't be what people are saying it is.

                      And as far as I know-- (do you know differently??)-- none of those facts have been determined yet.
                      FEMINISM is a HATE GROUP - Feminists are HATEFUL PEOPLE
                      It's time to call it out for what it is.



                      The World of Men - Men's Rights / MGTOW / Sites of Interest to Men

                      http://forums.avoiceformen.com/showt...nterest-to-Men

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Mifune View Post
                        Rational people condemn the initiation of violence. That means condemning it when it's some asshole driving a car into a crowd. It means condemning it when it's a white nationalist swinging a stick at someone's head. It means condemning it when it's antifa swing bicycle locks at people's heads. IT....IS....NOT....OKAY

                        There. You had the volume turned down a little low.
                        FEMINISM is a HATE GROUP - Feminists are HATEFUL PEOPLE
                        It's time to call it out for what it is.



                        The World of Men - Men's Rights / MGTOW / Sites of Interest to Men

                        http://forums.avoiceformen.com/showt...nterest-to-Men

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Mifune View Post
                          And yet it's somehow "offensive" for Trump to acknowledge that there's violent agitators on all sides.

                          Wait. That truth doesn't fit some people's ideological world-views. I guess that means it's okay for them to get violent with me.

                          You might want to clean out from under your bed. You wouldn't want to get any dust-devils up your nose when you need to hide... ;-)
                          FEMINISM is a HATE GROUP - Feminists are HATEFUL PEOPLE
                          It's time to call it out for what it is.



                          The World of Men - Men's Rights / MGTOW / Sites of Interest to Men

                          http://forums.avoiceformen.com/showt...nterest-to-Men

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by mr_e View Post
                            Suspect in congressional shooting was Bernie Sanders supporter, strongly anti-Trump
                            http://www.cnn.com/2017/06/14/homepa...ile/index.html

                            Emerging portrait of shooting suspect James T. Hodgkinson: Anti-Trump rhetoric on social media, repeat visits to YMCA near Virginia ballfield
                            https://www.washingtonpost.com/local...88f_story.html


                            So what about this guy? If he was a Trump *SUPPORTER* instead of ANTI-TRUMP, we'd *still* be hearing about it. But despite the fact that he quit his job and drove all the way from Illinois to attack a totally undefended baseball field full of (what he believed) were REPUBLICAN / right-wing members of congress and their staff-- and calmly stood there for around ten minutes or so shooting everybody he could find-- wounding five people including a US Senator-- but for the grace of God and a bullet from a stricken police officer, no one died.

                            "Trump is a Traitor. Trump Has Destroyed Our Democracy. It's Time to Destroy Trump & Co." he posted on his personal Facebook page on March 22.


                            "Republicans are the Taliban of the USA," he posted in February.

                            He was a extreme as they come.

                            And yet, curiously, after an initial news cycle or two, the whole thing has been pretty much swept right off the table.

                            Nobody wants *THAT* story. It quite inconveniently doesn't fit anybody's narrative.
                            OK... what democratic leader did not condemn that guy and what he did? or better yet.. .what democratic leader did condemn the violence in both sides, related to that incident???

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by Mifune View Post
                              And yet it's somehow "offensive" for Trump to acknowledge that there's violent agitators on all sides.
                              He acknowledged this... only when the violence comes from one side?

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by mr_e View Post
                                What the fuck is he SUPPOSED to do? What would he say that would satisfy you or anybody else who is looking for his head on a paper plate?
                                To make a clear statement that he find the values of the neo-nazis and the KKK to be anti american.

                                Something simple as that would have do it for me.

                                But instead of that we have nazis marching on the streets, and if a group gaters to oppose them... oh violence in both sides... Trump says... but the deads are no coming from both sides... so... ???

                                And don't come with the antifa stuff to me... I have being hammered here for 6 pages to make a distinction between a republican, a neo-nazi, a nazi, a racist, a conservative... page after page I have being ask to no do generalizations and to separate and single out each single ideology... as if the car did separate and single out antifa from anybody else???

                                How many antifas he actually hit with his car???

                                Why you can't differentiate an anti-nazi from an antifa?

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