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  • simpleman
    started a topic Charlottesville

    Charlottesville

    Few days have gone by this insident, and nobody in this forums have commented, so I guess it is my duty...

    I can immagine that if the drive of the trucks was named Abdu... or was he imigrant, it would be all over the forums... but what do I know...

    So here the actuall state of the situation, as is:

    "Trump again blames Charlottesville violence on both sides"
    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-40943425

    So... for some reason Trump have also refuse to denounce the perpetrators of the violence... and the best he have done so far is to say that both sides are equally violent.// but are they?

    This is not coming from any mainstream media, this is the narrative of a local, and how he perceived the events that day... He is a jew and he was at his synagogue for the Saturday service:

    http://reformjudaism.org/blog/2017/0...munity-presses

    ...

    On Saturday morning, I stood outside our synagogue with the armed security guard we hired after the police department refused to provide us with an officer during morning services. (Even the police department’s limited promise of an observer near our building was not kept — and note, we did not ask for protection of our property, only our people as they worshipped).

    Forty congregants were inside. Here’s what I witnessed during that time.

    For half an hour, three men dressed in fatigues and armed with semi-automatic rifles stood across the street from the temple. Had they tried to enter, I don’t know what I could have done to stop them, but I couldn’t take my eyes off them, either. Perhaps the presence of our armed guard deterred them. Perhaps their presence was just a coincidence, and I’m paranoid. I don’t know.

    Several times, parades of Nazis passed our building, shouting, “There's the synagogue!” followed by chants of “Seig Heil” and other anti-Semitic language. Some carried flags with swastikas and other Nazi symbols.

    A guy in a white polo shirt walked by the synagogue a few times, arousing suspicion. Was he casing the building, or trying to build up courage to commit a crime? We didn’t know. Later, I noticed that the man accused in the automobile terror attack wore the same polo shirt as the man who kept walking by our synagogue; apparently it’s the uniform of a white supremacist group. Even now, that gives me a chill.

    When services ended, my heart broke as I advised congregants that it would be safer to leave the temple through the back entrance rather than through the front, and to please go in groups.

    This is 2017 in the United States of America.

    Later that day, I arrived on the scene shortly after the car plowed into peaceful protesters. It was a horrific and bloody scene.

    Soon, we learned that Nazi websites had posted a call to burn our synagogue. I sat with one of our rabbis and wondered whether we should go back to the temple to protect the building. What could I do if I were there? Fortunately, it was just talk – but we had already deemed such an attack within the realm of possibilities, taking the precautionary step of removing our Torahs, including a Holocaust scroll, from the premises.

    ...
    So...

    Equally violent?

    Leftie media lies?

  • voidspawn
    replied
    Originally posted by Grumpy Old Man View Post
    I got that. The issues revolve around the prevailing narratives being driven. That is my concern,,,what is the truth. Trump did precisely what his predecessors did! Deconflict that small fact and we might be in agreement.
    One can hope the truth comes out with this. But when you look at the constant way one new outrage replaces last weeks the truth gets buried so deep it never surfaces. Maybe Field's trial will force something into the open, the murder he's being accused of is Ms Heyer's so the cause of death will have to go onto the record.

    Have you seen any of the material on the maroon car? I watched some videos that claimed it has been blocking that junction for five minutes or so earlier for no reason, just stayed at the junction until a crowd gathered. I could find those videos again if you've not seen them, but they weren't from any source I recognised, and I've no interest in linking to conspiracy nut stuff.

    Leave a comment:


  • Grumpy Old Man
    replied
    Originally posted by simpleman View Post
    OK... here my takes on it...

    I saw the videos and for what I saw I would not attempt to ID the woman that roll over the the car... that would basically take me to see previous videos and pictures, and figure them out for the clothes, hair style and the so... As far as I remember I have not seeing any pictures of her the day of the events on that place... so just to have an idea of her clothes. So as is...I am not speculating on who the woman rolling over the car is...

    The links I found all point out to a white supremacist that is basically mocking the woman by saying that she die because she was fat... At least that is how the 3 articles claim the origin of this theory, reading the description on those links, the impression is there that it was a joint effort of few groups that hit with the story at the same time...

    For instance one of the articles point to this video:



    So there is few pieces of information there:

    1. Claimed recent pictures of Heather... no clear if they are from the day of the events. Woman in pictures is clearly obese.

    2. Your standard narrative that the driver was scared and BS... videos show him driving from an empty street into the crowd... So you know my opinion on that.

    3. The mother explaining that the daughter die of heart attack... I notice that she did not deny in any moment that she was hit by the car... was the heart attack because she was obese or because a car hit her?

    Anyway... all this is basically beyond my interest on this debate, and that was Trump's hesitation to denounce facist violence... considering how happy he is to denounce all other forms of violence...
    I got that. The issues revolve around the prevailing narratives being driven. That is my concern,,,what is the truth. Trump did precisely what his predecessors did! Deconflict that small fact and we might be in agreement.

    Leave a comment:


  • simpleman
    replied
    Originally posted by Grumpy Old Man View Post
    I don't know which one it is...the woman in teal or the woman on the gurney in black being resuscitated, that is my point. What I do know is her mother stated she died of a heart attack.

    What I hear here is a narrative short on facts. Did Heather die from the impact or was she a bystander who had a heart attack?

    The question is which one is Heather and how is the lady in teal or black doing if she is not Heather. As far as a source, It popped up on Twitter and is as credible as any other sources because the media only implies, I cannot find where it states who is who and the reason of death aside from the mother's statement.

    Maybe you can help me find the truth, Hey?
    OK... here my takes on it...

    I saw the videos and for what I saw I would not attempt to ID the woman that roll over the the car... that would basically take me to see previous videos and pictures, and figure them out for the clothes, hair style and the so... As far as I remember I have not seeing any pictures of her the day of the events on that place... so just to have an idea of her clothes. So as is...I am not speculating on who the woman rolling over the car is...

    The links I found all point out to a white supremacist that is basically mocking the woman by saying that she die because she was fat... At least that is how the 3 articles claim the origin of this theory, reading the description on those links, the impression is there that it was a joint effort of few groups that hit with the story at the same time...

    For instance one of the articles point to this video:



    So there is few pieces of information there:

    1. Claimed recent pictures of Heather... no clear if they are from the day of the events. Woman in pictures is clearly obese.

    2. Your standard narrative that the driver was scared and BS... videos show him driving from an empty street into the crowd... So you know my opinion on that.

    3. The mother explaining that the daughter die of heart attack... I notice that she did not deny in any moment that she was hit by the car... was the heart attack because she was obese or because a car hit her?

    Anyway... all this is basically beyond my interest on this debate, and that was Trump's hesitation to denounce facist violence... considering how happy he is to denounce all other forms of violence...

    Leave a comment:


  • Grumpy Old Man
    replied
    Originally posted by simpleman View Post
    And before you jump with another long video, I am watching this right now, so can't watch any other long videos, sorry.

    I see we are playing games again!

    Leave a comment:


  • Grumpy Old Man
    replied
    Originally posted by simpleman View Post
    As you don't post any link I had to google it... but I guess google is fake news because this 3 links is all I found about it:

    http://www.theroot.com/fringe-media-...she-1803069261

    http://ijr.com/the-response/2017/09/...-one-murdered/

    http://www.alternet.org/right-wing/a...d-heart-attack

    Can you post a link that is not fake news?
    I don't know which one it is...the woman in teal or the woman on the gurney in black being resuscitated, that is my point. What I do know is her mother stated she died of a heart attack.

    What I hear here is a narrative short on facts. Did Heather die from the impact or was she a bystander who had a heart attack?

    The question is which one is Heather and how is the lady in teal or black doing if she is not Heather. As far as a source, It popped up on Twitter and is as credible as any other sources because the media only implies, I cannot find where it states who is who and the reason of death aside from the mother's statement.

    Maybe you can help me find the truth, Hey?

    Leave a comment:


  • simpleman
    replied
    And before you jump with another long video, I am watching this right now, so can't watch any other long videos, sorry.

    Leave a comment:


  • simpleman
    replied
    Originally posted by Grumpy Old Man View Post
    Post Script: I'm hearing that Heather was not the woman in teal struck by the auto and thrown over the windshield of the second car as media alluded too, but a woman in black who may have not been struck, but died of a heart attack.
    As you don't post any link I had to google it... but I guess google is fake news because this 3 links is all I found about it:

    http://www.theroot.com/fringe-media-...she-1803069261

    http://ijr.com/the-response/2017/09/...-one-murdered/

    http://www.alternet.org/right-wing/a...d-heart-attack

    Can you post a link that is not fake news?

    Leave a comment:


  • Grumpy Old Man
    replied
    Post Script: I'm hearing that Heather was not the woman in teal struck by the auto and thrown over the windshield of the second car as media alluded too, but a woman in black who may have not been struck, but died of a heart attack.

    Leave a comment:


  • mr_e
    replied
    Originally posted by TheNarrator View Post
    does that fit into simpleman's narrative?
    I doubt it. He seems to thrive on imply and insinuate. He calls himself a "moral relativist" and appears to have a difficult time understanding all the "moral relativism" at play here of the "ends justifying the means" variety. Trump condemning the violence on "all sides" is entirely appropriate. And frankly, is extremely salient and warranted given ANTIFA's checkered past. Including the Klan and the white nationalists was really more of a "good will" gesture to the left, IMO. The events which occurred at Charlottesville were in fact tragic, and no amount of spinning either way will change that nor absolve anybody for whatever part they played in them. But I think the evidence is pretty apparent at this point that ANTIFA showed up with the intention of committing violence-- they came with masks, weapons and offensive materials-- all with the intent of using them-- as publicly stated in their own words (on their website and in various interviews) prior to the event. While they probably did not go to Charlotte with the intention of manipulating the situation to the point that a death would occur-- there is little doubt in my own mind that had they not initiated / escalated the violence-- or frankly, had not been there at all-- the death probably would not have occurred at all. And you can look at the history of all of the parties concerned-- the one is associated with abhorrent views but have generally been peaceful in their gatherings. The other holding ostensibly "mainstream" views and surprisingly (or not), is the one who is consistently associated with initiating and committing violence in all of the places they have gathered. As GOM pointed out-- it has gotten to the point now where even the LEFT THEMSELVES, can no longer deny it or whitewash it away.

    Leave a comment:


  • mr_e
    replied
    Originally posted by Manalysis View Post
    To some degree, yes; and that is of necessity, since you can never formulate the rules for _every_ possible contingency and accidental of any given law.
    Or, perhaps it is technically possible; but I suspect you'd run out of paper after a few hundred years.
    So laws require interpretation, as the landscape shifts.
    Precedent, and stuff.


    Yes. Amazingly, they managed for centuries with 12 laws, inscribed on bronze tablets in the Forum for eveyone to read.
    The chief virtue was "fides", "(good) faith", i.e. the intention to fulfill the spirit of the law, not just obey its letter only.
    The latter is what gives us e.g. the evolutionary arms race between corporate tax lawyers and government tax legislators.
    When the Romans lost their faith in fides, suddenly there appeared "advocates", lawyers, which the Romans took as a certain sign
    of the decline of morality and the end of the world as they knew it.
    They missed by a few centuries, but it turned out to be true in the end.
    That, IMO, is the best way to handle it. A simple code written in simple words and short enough you can print it out and keep it in your back pocket.

    "Be good to each other."

    Leave a comment:


  • mr_e
    replied
    Originally posted by simpleman View Post
    I am personally a looser...
    Might I suggest a good belt...???

    Leave a comment:


  • Grumpy Old Man
    replied
    Originally posted by TheNarrator View Post
    does that fit into simpleman's narrative?
    I don't know, I'm trying to share accurate information/observations as I receive it. I found this article today from the Libertarian group American Thinker which speaks to a report by the Department of Homeland Security gave to authorities leading up to Charlotsville. It pretty much corroborates some of my observations. Must read: http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/...XtsGw.facebook

    Justicar does a reasonable talk on what many in the US already know pertaining to these groups. He also shares(with his usual snark) why some outside the spin doctors may not see the KKK as large an eminent threat relative to Antifa:

    Leave a comment:


  • TheNarrator
    replied
    Originally posted by Grumpy Old Man View Post
    The warning was about you taking my comments and trying to spin the conversation into your Ideological Narrative and obfuscating my words and message.

    For us Americans who follow all of these bat shit crazy's (Both Sides), we are well aware of who they are and what to expect from them. Who initiates violence and who will not if left unmolested..
    does that fit into simpleman's narrative?

    Leave a comment:


  • Grumpy Old Man
    replied
    Originally posted by simpleman View Post
    Oh well my beloved derailed threat... Why we talk about poetry and philosophy?

    In the other hand... I don't regret any of it...

    As the moderator is issuing "fair warnings" and the so... I'd say it is time to split.
    The warning was about you taking my comments and trying to spin the conversation into your Ideological Narrative and obfuscating my words and message.

    In the attached video the Mayor of Berkeley finally saw the direction the wind is blowing and has called for Antifa to be declared a gang. I'm inclined to agree with him, although I know their goal is to bring down our current Republic and that warrants a higher threat than mere gang status. In fact you'll also notice the media is finding it awful hard to excuse them after Berkeley last weekend. My only question is where have they been for the last year with these fuckers. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xIfne_45gIA

    What happened in Berkeley a week after Charlottesville did not happen in a bubble. Antifa has been operating, inciting, and committing violence since the G20 summit in Seattle 1999, they have done this at every event they show up to. It's highly improbable that Charlottesville would be an anomaly as the media and ideologues want us to believe, and the fact there are videos of them engaging in violence: Initiating confrontation by impeding progress (blocking access) to the park, initiating an attack in a parking lot, throwing shit and blocking cars and streets, leaving their permitted rally areas. That is the push back you are getting from this community in respect to both sides being responsible:

    What you may not be aware of is the "Real" KKK had a permitted Rally in Charlottesville on the 8th of July. They were escorted both to and from the park by police and there was no violence on their part. As the Klan left, the counter protesters started following them and impeding their departure, causing violence and the police declared counter protesters an unlawful assembly and arrested some 23. This pissed Antifa et al off and made the next rally an even bigger bone to pick. https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/08/u...ee-statue.html

    When the "Unite the Right Rally" was in the planning stages one of the organizers for the previous KKK counter protest in July requested and received two permits at parks flanking the UtR rally. The man who did that was a college professor who mentioned that a gathering of 3 or more without permits can be declared an unlawful assembly was a lesson learned. The tactic which was used when the counter demonstrators left their approved rally areas and started blocking access/impeding movement and engaging with the UtR folks at their approved area causing the whole gaggle to be broken up (including the UtR) under the pretext of an unlawful assembly. Which may or may not get the city around the court order to allow the UtR rally to happen. It's also clear the police did not do the same diligence as they did during the previous KKK Rally a month earlier, and were culpable if not instrumental in the two sides coming together. Some think that was by design to develop the pretext to shut it down.

    For us Americans who follow all of these bat shit crazy's (Both Sides), we are well aware of who they are and what to expect from them. Who initiates violence and who will not if left unmolested. It does not take a brain surgeon to figure out that there was a strong potential of violence with the pre-event media priming the pump and Antifa members coming from DC and other places and the local organizers having a bone to pick.

    There are many more facts about this event I have not mentioned, and more which I believe will come out in the future. But, this is the context for placing blame on both sides.

    Leave a comment:

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