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  • Gets my Goat!

    I want to rant about something that really pi--, er, gets my goat.

    The idiots who have destroyed the American Empire seem to think any decision they have made must apply to the entire world, with other nations having no sovereign nation rights of their own.

    But, before I continue, let me say every time I have discussed age of consent issues on a men's board, there is always some disgusting person who immediately accuses me of lusting after kids, or some such nonsense. For once, I hope everyone here at least reads what I write before falsely attacking me.

    What got my goat was reading an article somewhere on the Web about children marrying in Mexico. I thought, OMG, 8 year old kids getting married.

    No, turns out they were talking about biologically mature young people from 13 to 18 years old.

    I am sick and tired of being told that 15 year old girls are BABIES!

    I, as a father and a grandfather, wish girls would remain pure and innocent until they are ready to marry. But, they do not. Last time I checked it was claimed the average age of first sex was around 16. So, our so-called protective laws don't work for s**t.

    Until the 70's, the most common reason under-age girls ended up in reform school was sexual activity. That is, sex for under age girls was a crime almost as serious as for men who had sex with them. I graduated from high school and our graduating class had exactly one student pregnant in four years of high school. Why?

    Well, in the words of a cute blond on my school bus, "I am not having sex because if I get pregnant my dad will make me get married and I don't want to get married." The thought of being married deterred her sexual activity. I noted with interest she didn't seem to be concerned about having a kid to take care of.

    Today, we not only don't make them get married when they get pregnant. We don't even allow it. So, instead of an unwanted marriage as a result of getting knocked up, we give them their own apartment and a monthly allowance as a reward. Anything you pay well for, you get more of.

    But, that is only expressing my disagreement with the US policy on young marriages. My real gripe is when the US tries to portray other nations who better understand female libido as somehow being primitive or uncivilized.

    Around forty years ago, a 12 year old girl in my neighborhood got pregnant. Upon investigating her parents learned it was a 25 year old man who got her pregnant. In Mexico, the parents decide after age 12 if the man goes to prison, or I should say faces a criminal trial. The man said sure, he'd support her. And, the girl once she was assured that meant she could have dick any time she wanted, also agreed. She is now 52, and he is 65, and they raised 3 children to be good citizens. In the US, she'd have been a leech on the tax payers and her several future convicts would have helped destroy the inner city they lived in. Good job, idiots. Now, insist all other nations adopt your superior system. [/sarcasm]

    Not long ago, a woman wrote somewhere on the Web that 15 year old girls were BABIES. Really?

    Twelve years ago, I wrote on my private mailing list that I had gone to visit a friend to help her with her English homework for school. In this short tale, there will be one deliberate lie, which I will point out later.

    She was 17 years old. While I was there, she gave her little brothers a bath, put clean clothes on them, washed their dirty clothes by hand (of course, how else?) and hung them up to dry. Then, she cooked a meal and set their plates to eat, then took a plate to her mother who is chronically ill.

    Here is the lie. She was not seventeen years old, but eight years old. Her mom said she had been doing that since she was 6 years old.

    So, in the USA, a fifteen year old female is a baby, but in Mexico, an eight year old girl is not a baby. Amazing! That sure doesn't say much for how our kids are trained, does it? Yet, we are trying to force other nations to accept our mental illness.

    Let me repeat. IF such laws would really make a difference, if they would result in all females being sexually inactive until they get past high school and get a work skill, or graduate from college, and enter a stable marriage, i would have no objection at all. But, in fact, those laws actually encourage girls to get knocked up and drop out of school, and destroy their neighborhoods. Yet our morons in charge actually believe they know better than anyone.
    Last edited by polite_disagreement; 11-29-2017, 03:31 AM.

  • #2
    Originally posted by polite_disagreement View Post
    I want to rant about something that really pi--, er, gets my goat.

    The idiots who have destroyed the American Empire seem to think any decision they have made must apply to the entire world, with other nations having no sovereign nation rights of their own.

    But, before I continue, let me say every time I have discussed age of consent issues on a men's board, there is always some disgusting person who immediately accuses me of lusting after kids, or some such nonsense. For once, I hope everyone here at least reads what I write before falsely attacking me.

    What got my goat was reading an article somewhere on the Web about children marrying in Mexico. I thought, OMG, 8 year old kids getting married.

    No, turns out they were talking about biologically mature young people from 13 to 18 years old.

    I am sick and tired of being told that 15 year old girls are BABIES!

    I, as a father and a grandfather, wish girls would remain pure and innocent until they are ready to marry. But, they do not. Last time I checked it was claimed the average age of first sex was around 16. So, our so-called protective laws don't work for s**t.

    Until the 70's, the most common reason under-age girls ended up in reform school was sexual activity. That is, sex for under age girls was a crime almost as serious as for men who had sex with them. I graduated from high school and our graduating class had exactly one student pregnant in four years of high school. Why?

    Well, in the words of a cute blond on my school bus, "I am not having sex because if I get pregnant my dad will make me get married and I don't want to get married." The thought of being married deterred her sexual activity. I noted with interest she didn't seem to be concerned about having a kid to take care of.

    Today, we not only don't make them get married when they get pregnant. We don't even allow it. So, instead of an unwanted marriage as a result of getting knocked up, we give them their own apartment and a monthly allowance as a reward. Anything you pay well for, you get more of.

    But, that is only expressing my disagreement with the US policy on young marriages. My real gripe is when the US tries to portray other nations who better understand female libido as somehow being primitive or uncivilized.

    Around forty years ago, a 12 year old girl in my neighborhood got pregnant. Upon investigating her parents learned it was a 25 year old man who got her pregnant. In Mexico, the parents decide after age 12 if the man goes to prison, or I should say faces a criminal trial. The man said sure, he'd support her. And, the girl once she was assured that meant she could have dick any time she wanted, also agreed. She is now 52, and he is 65, and they raised 3 children to be good citizens. In the US, she'd have been a leech on the tax payers and her several future convicts would have helped destroy the inner city they lived in. Good job, idiots. Now, insist all other nations adopt your superior system. [/sarcasm]

    Not long ago, a woman wrote somewhere on the Web that 15 year old girls were BABIES. Really?

    Twelve years ago, I wrote on my private mailing list that I had gone to visit a friend to help her with her English homework for school. In this short tale, there will be one deliberate lie, which I will point out later.

    She was 17 years old. While I was there, she gave her little brothers a bath, put clean clothes on them, washed their dirty clothes by hand (of course, how else?) and hung them up to dry. Then, she cooked a meal and set their plates to eat, then took a plate to her mother who is chronically ill.

    Here is the lie. She was not seventeen years old, but eight years old. Her mom said she had been doing that since she was 6 years old.

    So, in the USA, a fifteen year old female is a baby, but in Mexico, an eight year old girl is not a baby. Amazing! That sure doesn't say much for how our kids are trained, does it? Yet, we are trying to force other nations to accept our mental illness.

    Let me repeat. IF such laws would really make a difference, if they would result in all females being sexually inactive until they get past high school and get a work skill, or graduate from college, and enter a stable marriage, i would have no objection at all. But, in fact, those laws actually encourage girls to get knocked up and drop out of school, and destroy their neighborhoods. Yet our morons in charge actually believe they know better than anyone.
    Dude, the age of consent in my state with a few exceptions is 16. I agree with it and that is my limit based on experience and raising kids. You come on this forum and throw ages such as 8 or 12...you are simply spamming our boards with shit that is poison to what we are doing here. The US is not a third world Nation and we are not Mexico for a reason. This is going in the shit can!
    ethikē aretē--phronesis--eudaimonia
    virtue of character--practical/ethical wisdom--human flourishing

    It is not a battle to win but an attitude to share.
    AVFM Mission Statement
    sigpic

    Comment


    • #3
      I came back here for two reasons. First, to put on my HD the posting which caused such rage in the administrator. And, second, this posting originally included an apology. IF I can, I am going to delete that apology, since I owe no one an apology for my posting.

      I had the same problem several years ago on the MRA board which was owned by a strange man who called himself Nacho. A stupid NYT writer wrote an article which said the age of consent in Mexico was 12, which is false. It is 18, but after 12, only the parents or the girl can press charges. I was concerned that this false information might lead those PUA's who like to run from country to country getting sex to think they could do that in Mexico with younger girls. So, I wrote a posting not only explaining the age of consent laws in Mexico, correctly, but also pointing out that any US citizen or resident who has sex with anyone under age 16, anywhere in the world, no matter local AOC, faces 15 years in Federal prison. And, if money is involved, under age 18 is 30 years in prison.

      At that time most of the Best Of The Board postings on that board were mine. No brag, just fact. Next time I went to make a posting, I got a error message that I had been banned for life. I was stunned. After time to think it over, I realized Nacho was such an idiot he only understood I was writing something about having sex with underage girls, and that is not acceptable. No matter that it was a warning, speaking out against it.

      In the US, there is a lot of underage sex, consensual sex, with underage girls. Our inner cities are unsafe due the large number of unwed mothers including under age 18. Living in Mexico, it is apparent this may be the single biggest social problem in the USA. Inner cities destroyed. Prisons overflowing. Society going down in flames. And, more.

      Yet, as we have seen today, with it being either our biggest social problem, or very close to it, on AVFM, we can't even discuss it without being accused of being a sick person, who is fascinated with under age girls and who has poisoned the entire board.

      Let me add that the youngest pregnant girl I have personally heard of was not in Mexico, but in Amarillo, Texas. She was 8. In the US news a few years ago it was alleged a very young girl was pregnant, in a small Mexican rural town. I don't remember the age, but it was very young. Oh, the scandal. What a terrible sick country. When the authorities in her municipio (county) finally heard about it, they investigated and she was actually over 12 years old, and got pregnant by her 13 year old friend. She had never been to school, and simply did not know how old she was, nor did her equally illiterate parents, but birth records were located, and it was a false issue.

      In closing, I want to say, your accusation was both false and extremely insulting. I have better things to do than associate with fools like you. GFY. I am out of here.
      Last edited by polite_disagreement; 11-29-2017, 04:12 PM.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Grumpy Old Man View Post
        Dude, the age of consent in my state with a few exceptions is 16. I agree with it and that is my limit based on experience and raising kids. You come on this forum and throw ages such as 8 or 12...you are simply spamming our boards with shit that is poison to what we are doing here. The US is not a third world Nation and we are not Mexico for a reason. This is going in the shit can!
        I don't think that polite_disagreement is advocating sex with children at 8 or 12.

        I think he's attempting to highlight the difference in amount of responsibility that children in other countries shoulder. This is an extension of circumstance (sometimes your mom gets sick and you have to take care of her at 8) and the amount of agency that those societies believe children at different ages have.

        I can only imagine it's pretty glaring to watch an 8 year old successfully care for her siblings and then at the exact same time listen to someone telling you that a 15 year old is essentially unable to possess agency of her own.

        I believe polite_disagreement is trying to pose the question of how much agency should we ascribe to children and adolescents from the perspective that he believes we ascribe too little.

        Society already believes that adolescents at least possess some or we wouldn't try them as adults for certain serious crimes. The question is where's the line? Are we doing our children a service by sheltering them until 17, 18, 19, 25? Are we doing them a disservice? Where's the line of cruelty? An 8 year old taking care of her family is inspiring and at the same time tragic. How do we honor and nurture the human spirit that's capable of that at 8 years old without at the same time sheltering it from the situations that spur that kind of growth?

        Just some thoughts.
        "...but when she goes off you, she will not just walk away, she will walk away with your fucking skin in a jar." ~~ DoctorRandomercam
        "The laws of man, they don't apply when blood gets in a woman's eye" - The Black Keys

        Comment


        • #5
          That was exactly my intent, Mifune. I thought it was obvious. Thank you for understanding. Words cannot explain how offensive his accusations were, to someone who has been married 42 years and has never so much as flirted with another woman of any age. I cannot stay anywhere where a man like that is in charge. Thanks to everyone but him.

          Comment


          • #6
            Well... I actually typed out an answer before, but had the wisdom to delete and cose... lol...

            But I guess nobody is wise for ever... so here a few thoughts on the topic:




            Originally posted by Mifune View Post
            Society already believes that adolescents at least possess some or we wouldn't try them as adults for certain serious crimes.
            The law actually is worded especifically against this... so a person might be consider to be judge as an adult, for a crime, and at the same time this will not be acceptable excuse for an adult to have sex with said person... I don't know the details about this... maybe someone tried it out thinking it was a loophole, or something...

            The question is where's the line?
            Where the law says it is... LOL.

            An 8 year old taking care of her family is inspiring and at the same time tragic.
            Tragic I agree, that was the actual word I used in the deleted anwer... I don't see the "inspiring" part of it anywhere... just tragic.

            How do we honor and nurture the human spirit that's capable of that at 8 years old without at the same time sheltering it from the situations that spur that kind of growth?
            We don't... that girl should be going to school, and playing with friends...

            PD, is wrong in pretty much everything he says about the legal system in US... the laws are not in place to discourage girls from having sex... the laws are in place to discourage adults to having sex with kids... the idea that girls are sentenced "almost" as hard as men is basically... silly.

            All this said, I think US society have a wrong legal approach to pedophilia... in the sense that it is proven that a person can't control the sexual desires, what a person can control is what they do with the desires.... for instance if act out on them or not...

            To give a contrast example... a person might think on stealing some money from the boss... the person per se can't decide to want or don't want to do this... but the person can decide if he will actually take the money or not... all legal doctrines explain that the person is not a criminal for thinking or desiring the crime, if at the end the person does not commit the crime. Otherwise we will be punishing people for stuff they imagine and not for stuff they actually do... the way pedophilia have being worded in the law, it indicates that imagination, in this case, constitute a crime... and that is a very dangerous line for the law to cross.

            We are actually seeing an extension of this same legal approach, with the whole sex robots debate... the criminalization of having sexual fantasies with women does not sound so much of an overreach if we consider that society is already OK with the criminalization of fantasies with underages. But this is a ball that will keep rolling out of the pedophilia sphere and try to be used to penalize all sort of fantasies... hence true legally worded "crime though".

            Comment


            • #7
              girls are very sexual very young.

              denying it is stupid and part of gynocentrism. we should be able to talk openly here.

              i dont agree with having sex with them. but them being sexual is a fact.
              Originally posted by MatrixTransform
              where were you before you put yourself last?
              Originally posted by TheNarrator
              Everywhere I travel, tiny life. Single-serving sugar, single-serving cream, single pat of butter. The microwave Cordon Bleu hobby kit. Shampoo-conditioner combos, sample-packaged mouthwash, tiny bars of soap. The people I meet on each flight? They're single-serving friends.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by polite_disagreement View Post
                I came back here for two reasons. First, to put on my HD the posting which caused such rage in the administrator. And, second, this posting originally included an apology. IF I can, I am going to delete that apology, since I owe no one an apology for my posting.

                I had the same problem several years ago on the MRA board which was owned by a strange man who called himself Nacho. A stupid NYT writer wrote an article which said the age of consent in Mexico was 12, which is false. It is 18, but after 12, only the parents or the girl can press charges. I was concerned that this false information might lead those PUA's who like to run from country to country getting sex to think they could do that in Mexico with younger girls. So, I wrote a posting not only explaining the age of consent laws in Mexico, correctly, but also pointing out that any US citizen or resident who has sex with anyone under age 16, anywhere in the world, no matter local AOC, faces 15 years in Federal prison. And, if money is involved, under age 18 is 30 years in prison.

                At that time most of the Best Of The Board postings on that board were mine. No brag, just fact. Next time I went to make a posting, I got a error message that I had been banned for life. I was stunned. After time to think it over, I realized Nacho was such an idiot he only understood I was writing something about having sex with underage girls, and that is not acceptable. No matter that it was a warning, speaking out against it.

                In the US, there is a lot of underage sex, consensual sex, with underage girls. Our inner cities are unsafe due the large number of unwed mothers including under age 18. Living in Mexico, it is apparent this may be the single biggest social problem in the USA. Inner cities destroyed. Prisons overflowing. Society going down in flames. And, more.

                Yet, as we have seen today, with it being either our biggest social problem, or very close to it, on AVFM, we can't even discuss it without being accused of being a sick person, who is fascinated with under age girls and who has poisoned the entire board.

                Let me add that the youngest pregnant girl I have personally heard of was not in Mexico, but in Amarillo, Texas. She was 8. In the US news a few years ago it was alleged a very young girl was pregnant, in a small Mexican rural town. I don't remember the age, but it was very young. Oh, the scandal. What a terrible sick country. When the authorities in her municipio (county) finally heard about it, they investigated and she was actually over 12 years old, and got pregnant by her 13 year old friend. She had never been to school, and simply did not know how old she was, nor did her equally illiterate parents, but birth records were located, and it was a false issue.

                In closing, I want to say, your accusation was both false and extremely insulting. I have better things to do than associate with fools like you. GFY. I am out of here.
                "Fool" is not a word those who know me call me. I've seen these conversations a number of times and this(below) qualification got this thread thrown in the trash bin. None of us are naive enough to think kids don't experiment or are not promiscuous. Laws are in place to temper abuse, and adults are here to protect our youth. But it is the "fool" who dances around.

                Let me repeat. IF such laws would really make a difference, if they would result in all females being sexually inactive until they get past high school and get a work skill, or graduate from college, and enter a stable marriage, i would have no objection at all. But, in fact, those laws actually encourage girls to get knocked up and drop out of school, and destroy their neighborhoods.
                ethikē aretē--phronesis--eudaimonia
                virtue of character--practical/ethical wisdom--human flourishing

                It is not a battle to win but an attitude to share.
                AVFM Mission Statement
                sigpic

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Mifune View Post
                  I don't think that polite_disagreement is advocating sex with children at 8 or 12.

                  I think he's attempting to highlight the difference in amount of responsibility that children in other countries shoulder. This is an extension of circumstance (sometimes your mom gets sick and you have to take care of her at 8) and the amount of agency that those societies believe children at different ages have.

                  I can only imagine it's pretty glaring to watch an 8 year old successfully care for her siblings and then at the exact same time listen to someone telling you that a 15 year old is essentially unable to possess agency of her own.

                  I believe polite_disagreement is trying to pose the question of how much agency should we ascribe to children and adolescents from the perspective that he believes we ascribe too little.

                  Society already believes that adolescents at least possess some or we wouldn't try them as adults for certain serious crimes. The question is where's the line? Are we doing our children a service by sheltering them until 17, 18, 19, 25? Are we doing them a disservice? Where's the line of cruelty? An 8 year old taking care of her family is inspiring and at the same time tragic. How do we honor and nurture the human spirit that's capable of that at 8 years old without at the same time sheltering it from the situations that spur that kind of growth?

                  Just some thoughts.
                  I understand, and made my position clear.
                  ethikē aretē--phronesis--eudaimonia
                  virtue of character--practical/ethical wisdom--human flourishing

                  It is not a battle to win but an attitude to share.
                  AVFM Mission Statement
                  sigpic

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by TheNarrator View Post
                    girls are very sexual very young.

                    denying it is stupid and part of gynocentrism. we should be able to talk openly here.

                    i dont agree with having sex with them. but them being sexual is a fact.
                    I think I made my position clear.
                    ethikē aretē--phronesis--eudaimonia
                    virtue of character--practical/ethical wisdom--human flourishing

                    It is not a battle to win but an attitude to share.
                    AVFM Mission Statement
                    sigpic

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by polite_disagreement View Post
                      That was exactly my intent, Mifune. I thought it was obvious. Thank you for understanding. Words cannot explain how offensive his accusations were, to someone who has been married 42 years and has never so much as flirted with another woman of any age. I cannot stay anywhere where a man like that is in charge. Thanks to everyone but him.
                      My accusation is that no matter what your intent was, the post can be abused by anyone who comes here and reads it. Then your qualified statement at the end solidifies that possibility. Are you such a child you can't see a problem on a board like this? Wo is me, GOM said I was interested in 8-12 year old children when in fact I (GOM) never said that! You lost the plot.

                      You come on this forum and throw ages such as 8 or 12...you are simply spamming our boards with shit that is poison to what we are doing here
                      Now please tell me "what kind of man you think I am?"
                      ethikē aretē--phronesis--eudaimonia
                      virtue of character--practical/ethical wisdom--human flourishing

                      It is not a battle to win but an attitude to share.
                      AVFM Mission Statement
                      sigpic

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Grumpy Old Man View Post
                        I think I made my position clear.
                        i agree with 16 also. but i dont think his post was all that inflammatory is what im saying. girls ARE sexual. they very young throw themselves at men. its a fact. him SAYING so..isnt wrong. and it should be talked about/ in fact its a problem in our society that its NOT talked about.
                        Originally posted by MatrixTransform
                        where were you before you put yourself last?
                        Originally posted by TheNarrator
                        Everywhere I travel, tiny life. Single-serving sugar, single-serving cream, single pat of butter. The microwave Cordon Bleu hobby kit. Shampoo-conditioner combos, sample-packaged mouthwash, tiny bars of soap. The people I meet on each flight? They're single-serving friends.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by TheNarrator View Post
                          i agree with 16 also. but i dont think his post was all that inflammatory is what im saying. girls ARE sexual. they very young throw themselves at men. its a fact. him SAYING so..isnt wrong. and it should be talked about/ in fact its a problem in our society that its NOT talked about.
                          Read my other posts on the problem with the OP.

                          I've seen this type of argument many times and inevitably it degenerates and is prime for quote mining. I'm here to protect the forums and AVFM, right or wrong that is what I'm going to do within my ability. I very well could have locked this thread down/deleted it as opposed to putting it in a non membership area and make it clear the Admin does not support the assertions of the posts and make my position clear.

                          Note added: The only conversation to have on promiscuous children is how we as adults protect them from exploitation.
                          ethikē aretē--phronesis--eudaimonia
                          virtue of character--practical/ethical wisdom--human flourishing

                          It is not a battle to win but an attitude to share.
                          AVFM Mission Statement
                          sigpic

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by polite_disagreement View Post
                            That was exactly my intent, Mifune. I thought it was obvious.
                            Yes, but you know what they say about good intentions.
                            Who is to say that no posting can get better with a little editing?

                            Words cannot explain how offensive his accusations were, to someone who has been married 42 years and has never so much as flirted with another woman of any age.
                            AFAICS nobody is accusing you of anything about females of any age; no one in the forum thinks anything like this about you.
                            And AFAICS, neither does GOM. What he is concerned about, and rightly so, is the danger of broaching topics that are damaging to the forum.
                            That is also what he wrote in his first reaction. I see no accusation of impropriety wrt. females there.
                            Some subjects are so sensitive that even mentioning them requires the utmost care; protection of kids is one of them.

                            Fwiw I think the topic is one worthy of consideration, if handled with care, but then you and GOM clash exactly on the central moral issue that is contentious:
                            Do children have agency? If they have, should that result in different social practices?
                            You bring some examples of cultures where the answer is yes, GOM answers from a culture where the answer is a definite no; a no-no, even.

                            It is perhaps an area where we have to accept theoretically inconsitent ways, like whether or not a foetus is "alive" or "a person". There is the right to abortion on the one hand, and the prosecution of any third party who harms a foetus in the womb on the other hand; so we manage a "yes, but no" in some cases already.
                            Perhaps kids have agency, but we don't base laws like age of consent on our views on this. This means, I think, that the forum may be open to a general discussion or analysis of underlying principles, especially to the degree that they cast light on other, more or less related issues, while one is well advised to stay away from disussing the practical implications and applications of these principles in e.g legislation, in favour of waiting for the general popular consensus to change first.

                            Speaking of agency, can a 15 year old have an abortion?

                            I cannot stay anywhere where a man like that is in charge.
                            As per above, I fear that you are misreading him, and so your hurt and anger could be slightly misdirected.
                            Do what you need to do to regain your peace of mind (walk on the beach/ Mescal Slammers), and continue your contributions to the forum.
                            Please.

                            M

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by simpleman View Post
                              all legal doctrines explain that the person is not a criminal for thinking or desiring the crime, if at the end the person does not commit the crime. Otherwise we will be punishing people for stuff they imagine and not for stuff they actually do... the way pedophilia have being worded in the law, it indicates that imagination, in this case, constitute a crime... and that is a very dangerous line for the law to cross.

                              We are actually seeing an extension of this same legal approach, with the whole sex robots debate... the criminalization of having sexual fantasies with women does not sound so much of an overreach if we consider that society is already OK with the criminalization of fantasies with underages. But this is a ball that will keep rolling out of the pedophilia sphere and try to be used to penalize all sort of fantasies... hence true legally worded "crime though".
                              Another excellent point. Include the debates on pornography and on video games, and you have the whole slippery slope.

                              M

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